God or not.

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?

"I think, therefore I am"

"God" or a "higher power" is imagined by every race, culture, and subculture of the human species. It is not surprising due to the fact that there are many things and thoughts on this planet or our minds which cannot simply be explained at a quick look. "God" takes the place here, and is given credit for things that essentially befuddle people or are too far out of said people's narrow views. So simply, "God" is a creation of the human mind that takes the place of irrational things, events, and thoughts, that the said human mind cannot fully comprehend.

I agree with Shadow. Every culture has invented, at some point or another, their view of what a "God" should be. They have invented his/her looks, beliefs, appearance, cultural references, and even how they contribute to everyday life. I think the Romans did a good job of being one of the best Polytheistic races, but as for Monotheistic, Islam and Christianity are behind the Jews in my opinion. I'm not saying the Jews are better, but have you ever seen the Jews prancing their God around or killing in the name of their Lord? I feel that religion itself has caused more harm than good, considering it has a good moral foundation, but humanity fucks it up completely.

Neither of you came close to doing anything but reiterating the same thing I said in 1 line.

The question is DO YOU believe there is a God. YOU.

And if so, or not... why. What evidence can you post that will farther 1 side or the other.

All I saw that you both actually did was make an extension

T@D wrote:Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.

of my line...

Actually, you are wrong. You asked to debate the existence of it; not if we believe or not. And I do think that if you took the time to read mine or tool's response, you would see how obvious it is that neither of us believe.

Your reply maybe.... tools didnt say whether he had an actual belief or not. And being the fact of the "existence" of God or not... is a "do u believe or not question". If that wasn't clear, I hope it is now.

Ill wait on a replt to make my points.

You should know by now that I'm an Atheist...I think I've made it pretty clear through my forum posts, haha.

But why? What got you to believe ther is no existence of a God or higher power. What got us here, why is the earth... the earth.... so many avenues to go into... pick one. But at least say why.

I do not believe that god exist. This is due to the fact humans are what we are today because evolution and our thinking and reasoning skills leading to technological advances is the reason of ou success. Not because of god.

Also i see no proof of god. Where is god when millions of people die because of whatever reasons? Why is there so many contradictory statements about god? (surely god cant be that bad at communication skills) Why did god or jesus (just taking Christianity for example here) say something like "the randomness of the universe will always increase" or "energy is proportional to the weight of an object" or "four code is the key to humans", and have any of these lines written down by a disciple? It would seem like mystical to people back then but to us the meaning would have been clear.

I believe when i die, my brain will cease to function. My consciousness, which comes from my brain will cease to exist. Then me, in the original sense will cease to exist and that is all.

btw this is a nice section next topic warr? ;ppppppp

I don't believe for two reasons. First because it it purely pointless for one small human mind like mine to comprehend all that has been wrought (or rather could be wrought) by the planet in it's eons of existence. Secondly and finally the whole idea and concept of "God" and religion is so moronically idiotic, redundant, and unintelligent to me it's truly hilarious.

I'm a pretty strong-felt atheist, and to be honest I find the idea of most religion's depiction of god pretty ridiculous and offensive to the human intellect.

The belief that there's a higher power, something that controls the way things work and that sets the rules nature follows, is not one that I would deny. To me, there has to be a certain something that is holding things from going into utter chaos. The thing that makes things work like they do. Would I call this a thing a person, or a give it any attributions over me or anyone else? No. What I'm saying is that there has to be some sort of universal rule or knowledge that we haven't discovered that explains the rest of the things we can't figure out and we are not close to. I wouldn't even call it a thing, but more like a piece of knowledge that is missing from the human comprehension that could, and most likely will be, obtained at certain point.

This idea relates directly to the reason why 'god' was created: to explain why we can't understand. It is not 'someone' that created this things we can't comprehend, it is just the fact that we can't because either our physical limitations won't allow us at this moment in time, or because we've been missing it all along.

Science as we know it today is knowledge built from previous knowledge. Who's to say we aren't missing a big chunk of basic knowledge that would explain what is completely mysterious to us, those things we attribute to a god?

Ok, the reason why I got to the point of not believing in a higher power was the conflicting ideals of religions. Everyone claimed they were right, others were wrong. People told me how to live my life, to live for God. I thought that was completely bullshit. It took me a while, but I learned to live for myself first.

When I was younger, my mom and my dad's families both pushed my brother and I to believe their side of religion. My mom's side is Catholic/Christian, my dad's side is Jewish, and since they divorced both of them were constantly pushing holidays and forcing me to go to church/synagogue on me. Christmas and Hannukah, Easter and Passover. So many contradicting ideals between just these two religions made me realize that religion isn't real or possible, it's just another creative idea brought forth by humankind to relieve people of worry and to have faith.

I don't believe in it because I believe in nature and in science more than emotions and possible faith. I believe what I can see, and although "seeing isn't believing", I still like to know exactly what it is that I'm believing in, and why I'm choosing to believe it. Not just because someone tells me to.

So, if there is a Heaven and/or a hell... none of you care. What about Pascal's Wager. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager ).

Typically everyone says the same thing in multiple situations.... "better safe the sorry". Why does this never seem to apply to the existence of God?

EDIT, the link seems to not be click-able. Please cut and paste.

Better safe than sorry would apply to situations where the chance of failure goes higher than the acceptable level of failure (no such thing as perfect design). However in this case I myself, am certain that there is no god. Thus such an argument do not apply (to atheists), it would apply to agnostisists, people that "dont care wheter there is a god or not".

"but have you ever seen the Jews prancing their God around or killing in the name of their Lord?" -Tool

"I don't believe for two reasons. First because it it purely pointless for one small human mind like mine to comprehend all that has been wrought (or rather could be wrought) by the planet in it's eons of existence. Secondly and finally the whole idea and concept of "God" and religion is so moronically idiotic, redundant, and unintelligent to me it's truly hilarious."-Shadow..

Before i bring my personal opinions to the table, i would like to correct a few things. Regardless of if these things are true, Tool, every God based religion today "prances" their God around. And every religion has killed in the name of their God. Every peice of religious symbolism even in Jewish culture is in effect prancing their God around. Showing to others that, they are of this faith and they believe in this God. The past 2,000 years is a testimate to the power that Gods "love" has had over people. Even the Jews have killed in the name of their God. Weather it them defending themselves, fighting over land that was Divinly givin to them. Every religion/culture has fought for what they believe.


Smokey, why is it so hard for your mind to fathom these things? People all over the world do it every day. Weather their correct or even brain washed is beside the point. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the belief in God, or just the belief in anything can save lives? It doesnt have to be God or Gods, it can even be the belief in fellow man, to get you through these hard times. God has just served as the allmighty mental caregiver. So how is it pointless and moronic to believe in something that may in a way, save your life?


My opinions. No, i dont believe in God, Gods, or Buddah. I feel that there are to many contridictions in the Bible. The Bible or God says one thing, and then later says, its ok to do it. Much like our own Government . I just feel that if there is to be an absolute truth, that there wouldnt be so many holes to be found. I suppose it can go back to quesitoning God. "How could you say killing thy neighboor is bad when you drown a whole city" To which God would reply "They arnt my neighboors! I live in Miami Beach. I just did a cannon ball off the dock, what followed wasnt my fault or problem." You see the problem with that. Ive found to many holes in the bible to fully believe in it. Of course alot of the bible are the deciples interpritations of what God said, or even ment. Which another reason why its tough to comprehend. Becuase they arnt exactly historically accurate, if real to begin with.

Now the problem with Relgion. Im seperateing these two, because i believe one can believe in what ever they want without a organized religion to rely on. Catholicism I believe is the root of all evil in the world today. Greed and Power are the two biggest evils plauging our world today. And what organization better exsemplifies Greed and Power better than Catholsism? None. The crusades, the destruction of Celtic cultures, it was all for a reason.
The Church soon realized that if you control what people believe in, you can get them to do anything. One of the biggest scams in the world came from the Catholic Church. During the medi-evil ages the Church eplimented the penence. Pay for your sins, or pay for your recently depareted friend of familys sins, so they will be ferried across the river Styx and into the Graces of God. What would God want with money? Hes Omipitent. If he is all powerfull, if he wanted enough money to buy a Ferrari hed just produce it. Better yet, hed just produce a Ferrari. Not to mention, much of the Scrolls were descarded or taken out of the Bible for its damning evidence against the Churches beliefs. Why would you do that to seemingly historical as well as Divine teachings? Seems a bit sinfull to me. Then the Crusades, trying to find the Holy Grail. It was more to gain control over the land, and use the natural resorces. The Romans wernt the most powerfull Nation until they changed to Christianity. And once they realized the rewards, The conqureing exploded. Fighting in the name of the Lord they said. Cleansing this land of the filthy pagens.
To me Animism, a form of Pagenism is an accurate representation of what Pagen religions believed. Animism is the belief that all things are alive. A rock, a tree, a plant, a leaf, dirt even. Everything is alive, and everything has feelings. They are an aura around them, kind of like a life force. In a way most pagen religions believed in something like this. That, instead of a Monotheistic religion that, the beauties of the world are to much for one being. That, each of the plants, rocks, dirt, frogs, ect. have their own God to anwser to.

But like all relgions they even had their own problems...

See, youll never escape the person who says your wrong. Every religion has their own interpretation of events, and every religion is willing to fight for that belief. To me, it seems kinda of pointless. Fighting against your fellow man who believe in the same god, but yet, just dissagree on a few of the points. God is he exsits, wouldnt be to happy about that...

Maybe thats why he appointed Obama as President. Oh no wait, that was Satans doing.

But in a nutshell thats why i wont believe in God, or Organized religion. I can go on for days about this. But ill have to read other posts to continue.. I feel like ive rambeled on long enough.

im sorry but i dont get it why you mentioned Descartes (not sure the name is like this)
in this topic

so in my personal opinion god does not exist

and i also think that the church is the biggest criminal association in the world..
they dont pay taxes
they are and will do in future cause wars and hatred based on diversity or in this case religious diversity (just turn on the tv)
Inquisition

I meant "prancing" as in selling religious CD's, turning holidays into a sell-out season of economic profit, bombarding innocent people, towns, and countries for self-gain. I mean, sure there are some cases where Judaism has been exploiting others, but for the most part, no.

I don't understand that really. You really think theres other things in life more viable then the "afterlife? That failure there is acceptable? Meaning... if there is a hell... its ok NOT to believe, and spend eternity there or in the also religious versions of the amazing/wonderful heaven? And if it does exist... oops?


Basically Pascals wager in simple terms..... if you want to win the lottery, you want the prize that everyone admits is better then the other side. Wealth is better then poverty. SO, if you want to win the cash, live life in luxury, you have to buy a lotto ticket to even have a chance............. you have to at least play.

If you spend the dollar to win 20 million and lose.... you lost what, a dollar? What if you win. What an amazing return on your investment. You live life morally, follow biblical out-sights, argumentatively be a better person.... what is the harm? If there is no heaven, you have a better chance to positively impact the people around you which... wont matte, cause u are dead. If there is... you will continue through out eternity in heavens bliss as quotes in the bible.


You cant win the prize if you don't play the game.


EDIT: My post took a while, so this isn't amied at or related to Cats post. I have yet to read it.

@CAT


First off, I'm Shadow, not Smokey.

It's not hard, it's a waste of time. That was the premise of my post and the root of it. Why bother trying to fathom something unattainable? The human mind has its limits, this is one of them. All of Humanity to this day has been trying to fathom, my attitude is why bother? If generations upon generations try to uncover it... It's very likely I won't, and very likely that no one ever will.

I have thought of it, and I think that "belief" is an excuse to try harder. Anyone who has the will to live, can live (through most). If the belief in "God" is their excuse, more power to them... But to me it's highly irrelevant. If I get in a life-threatening situation, I will not ask "God" to help, I will pull all my might unto myself to strengthen my will to live, and if I live, it was because I myself had the power. Not that some divine power made me survive.

It is pointless and moronic because the belief itself has nothing to do with it. Like I stated above, if you have the will to live, for yourself, for your family, it has the same power as the will to live because of your belief in "God". So my thought is, if you don't love yourself or love your family enough to live... How can something imaginary be greater than that? People should favor an imaginary byproduct of their subconscious over themselves or family? You have to be dim, insane, or at the very least a little crazy to have that imaginary power be the cause of you to hold on to survive.

Shadow, not Smokey hehe sorry:P
I understand what your saying, however there are litterally Millions of people that prove what your saying to be wrong. Yes i respect and understand that its Your opinion, but can you not agree that what i said can be true of others? That, just the belief in something can save their lives?

Tool, the old sterotype that Jews are cheap is based on actuality. The Jews were THE bankers and money lenders of their time. And some banks have ties back to 2,000 years ago. Banks and money lenders even today put interest on what the lend, or hold. If thats not profieting off of some one else i dont know what is.

In my view, there is no lottery (THERE IS NO SPOON). And there is not a shred of doubt in my mind. Such costs for this "lottery" will be dishonesty to yourself (will god judge you if you "dont really believe" but pretend you do?), also a waste of time and energy and undoubtedly money on my part.

Now i have no problem with other people buying this lottery. Because to them it is not a lottery, it is not chance. It is a fact. And if they believe in that fact, then go ahead and i dont mind. I believe that they are wrong, that is why i am not in it and it simply ends there. No hate, no prejudice. Now for the type of religious people that does piss me off, you have to read the other thread!

@CAT

I think you missed the point of the last paragraph, I asked why would they believe in something like that when it's truly irrelevant. Because if you can be "saved' by it becuase your faith "allows" you to have increased willpower to overcome... Why use religion for that? If you can't muster the willpower to save yourself for yourself or your family's sake, but you can for an imaginary "divine power's" sake... That's wrong to me and I feel it's borderline insanity.

Well what your saying i think is crazier. If it takes the belief that if someone killed themselves they would go to hell, to change a persons perspective on life, then im all for it.
I dont see how you can say its insanity for a person to not want to kill themselves because of God.

No that's not what I'm saying at all...

I'm saying, that if the "Power of God" in their lives, is the sole cause for why they want to live, is insanity. If they cannot live for themselves or their family, but can live because of the belief in a figment of their imagination. That, in my eyes, is insanity.

Ex:
John is in a car wreck, he hates his family, hates his life, and hates himself... But loves "God". John chooses to fight for his life because of his love for "God". Not for himself, not for his family, but for a figment of his imagination. He could save himself regardless of "God", "God" is just the catalyst that motivates himself to keep living. I think that is insanity because of the fact that life is a gift and for someone to ONLY have the belief in "God" for motivation, is crazy.

Shadow, I believe you are missing quite a bit mainly in your example.

First off having a belief in God does not mean you are some bible thumping holy roller who has dedicated their lives to live soley for God, and nothing else. Having a belief in God has an extreme amount of levels. Hell, just a belief in something dosent indicate what your morals and daily practices are.

But... staying on your "type" of people.... your example would be 100% incorrect. Growing up in church and seeing these types of situations often, those people who believe that storngly would rather be taken to heaven then be alive. They believe that their deaths are in the hands of God. So argumentatively, that example holds no weight.