Hello all current *pWp* members. Please read this post in its entirety due to the importance of the content. I don't expect everyone to agree with this post, all I ask is for you to read it with an open mind. Feel free to post replies after reading.
On March 21 2007, Jake and I had an idea. We wanted to make a clan so he and I could scrim other clans 2v2. This clan was built as a family, him and I being real life family. We did not make the clan wanting to be the best, we made the clan so him and I, as family, could have fun together and enjoy playing a video game. We decided not to make a forum or have a server at the beginning because we wanted to just have fun in the game together. Consider it a dream of ours if you will. We didn't expect to be the best, the largest, the most known...all we wanted was to have fun. We had a few people ask to join, we politely declined. Why? Because we wanted the clan to stay family. The idea was thought through after a few months of adding people. We added 1 person, mainly so we could 3v3 instead of only being able to 2v2. The skill of the person we added was good...but we didn’t have the family feeling that we started with. He eventually went inactive, and it was just us two again.
After some more time went by, we decided it was time to go public with the clan. Time to make a forum, time to have a server. I spent a fairly large amount of money having a server built that I could host from home. I upped my internet speed, got a static IP, and spent quite a while with frog learning how servers worked. We worked very hard on everything, changed a lot of things back and forth with the forums and servers....but never lost sight of 1 thing, we were a family. A place for fun. A get-a-way for those players that either were new or didn't fit in to the competitive side of the community. Once we had servers, and a forum...the clan started growing fast. We, however, keep a hold of the reigns tight to make sure our "dream" of what pwp stood for was kept. Family.
At the beginning after going public with the clan, we pretty much lost every scrim to every clan. That was ok, we weren’t bothered with winning or losing....we wanted to have fun. We were succeeding in our efforts. I would come home from work, after leaving my xfire on, and see 20 messages a day from friends in quake and pwp members....just saying hi. There was no "clicks", we were all for 1, and 1 for all. We maybe only had 8-10 members, but we all knew each other. We had great times together. No drama, no competition....just fun. Again, following our dream. More people came, more wanted to join...the clan continued to grow...as a family.
There have been a lot of changes since then. A lot has happened. A lot personally, and a lot in game. In the past 6 months or so, a lot of things have happened that put the "dream" in the background. A few situations that happened in the past 3 weeks confirmed that to me, hence my withdraw. I didn't ever leave "*pWp*"...the clan Jake and I created.....I withdrew from the new *pWp*...what it had become.
I’m going to share a few messages I got from people once I left:
[20:21] ReApz: woulda been less work to just kick everyone u didn’t feel honored your beliefs in pwp :p
[20:21] ReApz: but that's just me, shortcut lover
[20:21] ReApz: lol
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: lol
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: I was gonna do that
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: but
[20:21] ReApz: i know u were
[20:21] ReApz: lol
[20:22] ReApz: pWp was ur baby
[20:22] ReApz: my only point
[20:22] {F&F}.T@D.: still is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23:23] *pWp*T@D*: i think im gonna leave
[23:23] *pWp*T@D*: I wanna give the clan to you
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: no ur not!
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: ya
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: no
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: u just gonna take a break?
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: I accomplished all I could
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: its time to start new
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: new?
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: Im gonna make a new clan...go back to what I wanted pwp to be
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: meh
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: its way out of wack, and wont fix uless we kick ppl
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: i dont wanna do tjat
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: kick people!
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: yes you do
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: ill back you up
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: 100%
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: so will acid
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: i know u would
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: ahh
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: 'i wanna start new
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: pwp has a VERY solid core
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: yes
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: it does
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: it will continue
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: but you need to be apart of it
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: like you said
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: i cant
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: this is ur clan
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: you have a tatto of it
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: its not what i wanted
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: make it what you wanted
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: kick people
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: do w/e
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: it takes
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: i cant, its past that point
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: i want it to continue to grow
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: not slow it down
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*pWp?*Sync*: Within this week
*pWp?*Sync*: You will regain control of pWp
*pWp?*Sync*: You will discuss your concerns on said members that your wish to eject
*pWp?*Sync*: via topic
*pWp?*Sync*: You and *frog will have control of the boards
*pWp?*Sync*: you and *frog will have control of the servers, dedicating rcon and ref to a few only
*pWp?*Sync*: No leader Bs
*pWp?*Sync*: No Cl bs
*pWp?*Sync*: honorary member is cool
*pWp?*Sync*: People get a little power hungry and do things just to move up rank
*pWp?*Sync*: Rank doesn’t matter in pWp Its FUN
*pWp?*Sync*: so, why rank anyway?
*pWp?*Sync*: You know who you can count on
*pWp?*Sync*: Despite their rank, so if you need some help, asking will be none the different
* = Edited
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many more conversations but I don’t need to post them all. The basics I got from people was "pwp is your clan, you and frog made it....if it's changed to what you don’t want, fix it" Well, that’s what’s going to happen. Again, I don’t expect everyone to agree or be happy with the changes; all I ask is that you understand that frog and I put a lot of effort into this, a lot of time, a lot of learning.....before we even had 1 other member. After adding members, there are a lot of people who put the same time and effort in to continue the dream. It's time to get the dream back on the right road.
Here is a list of my personal concerns of how things were, to how they are now. I'll try and point out the differences the best I can.
Then: We all knew a lot about each other. We joked, played the game, scrimmed.
Now: The clan is divided into clicks. I would guess that I have talked no more then 1-3 times with 30% of the members outside of a server.
Then: We said GG after every scrim, win or lose.
Now: It's rarer to see that then see a complaint about either teamwork, camping, hacking...etc.
Then: No one said anything degrading to each other during a scrim.
Now: I have seen team chat and even been yelled at personally by people because I’m not play up to their standards.
Then: Our scrims were to enjoy the game. Win or lose, it was for fun.
Now: The clan cares about wining more then fun.
Then: You messaged anyone you saw on xfire if there was a scrim
Now: Clan members only seem to either ask those to scrim who have a higher value of skill or are in their "click"
Then: When a scrim ended, players rotated in and out with those who were in spec waiting.
Now: Decisions on who stays in are more decided on skill and winning.
Then: We tried to include everyone in every scrim we could. Trying to have everyone take part in the clan.
Now: Clicks and skill again override that.
Then: We did not argue with other clans no matter what they said about us. THAT’S how we gained respect.
Now: We feel the need to "defend" the clan....in a video game....online with people we don't even know.
Then: We all talked to each other in private regarding any personal problems we had with each other.
Now: We post in the forums our dirty laundry.
Then: The decisions made in the clan weren’t questioned except in private.
Now: People again, post negatively without coming to the leaders.
Then: The posts made were in fun and light hearted.
Now: The forums have a dark cloud at times of drama and personal feelings.
There are so many more changes I can state, but we need to put all that behind us....get rid of the now, and go back to the then.
I am posting a new member list. If your name is on it, you are in pWp. If your name is not on it, frog and I have decided that you are no longer apart of the clan. The decisions of why some are no longer on the member list vary, so if you are no longer in the clan, feel free to message frog and I for the reasons. There is also a structure change. The roles posted will be the new roles of each member.
Pending decisions will be posted at the bottom of the list. If you are on the pending list, it is due to frog and I needing to discuss some things with you before a final decision. It does not mean you are being removed from the clan. We just want to talk to you about a few things if you are inclined to do so.
Admin/Founder
*pWp*T@D*
*pWp*FRoG*
Members
*pWp*Big*Buck*
*pWp*Sync*
*pWp*Turtle*
*pWp*Juggernaut*
*pWp*Killbox*
*pWp*Azu *
*pWp*Tomma*
*pWp*AltF4*
*pWp*McDonalds*
*pWp*Wrath*
*pWp*RustySpoon*
*pWp*tr[!]gun*
*pWp*Neko*
*pWp*BlaZe*
*pWp*Asian*
*pWp*Snipeja*
*pWp*Poison*
*pWp*Ghost*
*pWp*W!feY*
*pWp*Shadow*
*pWp*HoOL*
*pWp*K!N$L3R*
*pWp*comprichard*
*pWp*Squ!rrel*
*pWp*Max!ma*
*pWp*Xtreme*
*pWp*Spartan*
*pWp*DavidD*
*pWp*A$H*
*pWp*k0*
*pWp*Tool*
Pending Memberships
*pWp*WakeY*
*pWp*Ant*
*pWp*Abyss*
I included everyone that is in the clan. If you are not on the list, please remove the tags. You are no longer in pwp. There is no longer anyone on trials. Activity will no longer be an issue. Once you are accepted into the pwp family, you will always be accepted into the pwp family until you decide its time for you to move on.
If you are on the list and would like to leave the family, please post. Leaving the clan will not be looked down upon; it is everyone’s personal decision.
Your decisions should be based on this post. Whether or not you feel you fit in to the way pwp is suppose to be. The way pwp is going to be.
I’ll give a few things to think about to help you decide if this is the right place for you. Answer these questions honestly to yourself.
Do I care if I win or lose?
Do I get mad at clan members who play bad in scrims?
Is teamwork more important then fun?
Do I need to post my personal dislikes of others in the forums?
Do I not want to include clan members in scrims due to personal reasons?
Do I not feel apart of the family?
Do I not want to get to know everyone in the clan?
If you personally answer any one of these questions with a YES, then maybe this is not the right clan for you. This is what the clan was built on, and this is where it’s going. If you find yourself questioning any parts of this,that may be an indication this is no longer a suitable home for you.
I have posted on many occasions “if the clan ends up just frog and I again, I’m ok with that”. That still stands. That will always stand.
It’s time for those still on the list to decide if you are part of this or not. It’s going back to being a family, plain and simple.
Here are a few more notes on how things will work:
Dallas is not a *pWp* server. Acid is the sole owner of the server. It will be his decision whether or not the ref section stays in the pwp forums or not and who the ref’s are.
Decisions made in the clan on all aspects including new memberships are reserved for Frog me only. However, we are always up for suggestions, feel free to post or contact any one of us. We are not saying no ones opinions matter by any means, we are just taking full responsibility of what steps the clan takes in the future.
The join topic will remain closed until further notice.
There will be quite a bit of topics removed from the forums that are not inline with the way pwp is suppose to be. They will not be deleted; they will be moved to a place they can not be seen. Therefore, you will not lose post count if that’s important to you.
The {F&F}.Cl@n. will become a club. Further details on that and the server will come soon.
Lastly. I know a few people will say or think “But you are the one who left”. I did, but I can’t see myself losing all the work frog and I put into this. Reaper and buck opened my eyes a lot. If the clan is not what frog and I want it to be, make it that way.
Also, I will take a lot of the blame for what the clan has become in a way. I am not saying “hey, you guys screwed everything up”. I was part of it as well. I made mistakes. I followed the wrong direction many times as well. I see those mistakes now. Now they will be fixed.
That’s what we are going to do.
The ball is in your court now. Time to decide what is best for you; we have decided what is best for the clan.
In either sense, GL in what ever decisions you make.
Sincerely,
T@D and FRoG
On March 21 2007, Jake and I had an idea. We wanted to make a clan so he and I could scrim other clans 2v2. This clan was built as a family, him and I being real life family. We did not make the clan wanting to be the best, we made the clan so him and I, as family, could have fun together and enjoy playing a video game. We decided not to make a forum or have a server at the beginning because we wanted to just have fun in the game together. Consider it a dream of ours if you will. We didn't expect to be the best, the largest, the most known...all we wanted was to have fun. We had a few people ask to join, we politely declined. Why? Because we wanted the clan to stay family. The idea was thought through after a few months of adding people. We added 1 person, mainly so we could 3v3 instead of only being able to 2v2. The skill of the person we added was good...but we didn’t have the family feeling that we started with. He eventually went inactive, and it was just us two again.
After some more time went by, we decided it was time to go public with the clan. Time to make a forum, time to have a server. I spent a fairly large amount of money having a server built that I could host from home. I upped my internet speed, got a static IP, and spent quite a while with frog learning how servers worked. We worked very hard on everything, changed a lot of things back and forth with the forums and servers....but never lost sight of 1 thing, we were a family. A place for fun. A get-a-way for those players that either were new or didn't fit in to the competitive side of the community. Once we had servers, and a forum...the clan started growing fast. We, however, keep a hold of the reigns tight to make sure our "dream" of what pwp stood for was kept. Family.
At the beginning after going public with the clan, we pretty much lost every scrim to every clan. That was ok, we weren’t bothered with winning or losing....we wanted to have fun. We were succeeding in our efforts. I would come home from work, after leaving my xfire on, and see 20 messages a day from friends in quake and pwp members....just saying hi. There was no "clicks", we were all for 1, and 1 for all. We maybe only had 8-10 members, but we all knew each other. We had great times together. No drama, no competition....just fun. Again, following our dream. More people came, more wanted to join...the clan continued to grow...as a family.
There have been a lot of changes since then. A lot has happened. A lot personally, and a lot in game. In the past 6 months or so, a lot of things have happened that put the "dream" in the background. A few situations that happened in the past 3 weeks confirmed that to me, hence my withdraw. I didn't ever leave "*pWp*"...the clan Jake and I created.....I withdrew from the new *pWp*...what it had become.
I’m going to share a few messages I got from people once I left:
[20:21] ReApz: woulda been less work to just kick everyone u didn’t feel honored your beliefs in pwp :p
[20:21] ReApz: but that's just me, shortcut lover
[20:21] ReApz: lol
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: lol
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: I was gonna do that
[20:21] {F&F}.T@D.: but
[20:21] ReApz: i know u were
[20:21] ReApz: lol
[20:22] ReApz: pWp was ur baby
[20:22] ReApz: my only point
[20:22] {F&F}.T@D.: still is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23:23] *pWp*T@D*: i think im gonna leave
[23:23] *pWp*T@D*: I wanna give the clan to you
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: no ur not!
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: ya
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: no
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: u just gonna take a break?
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: I accomplished all I could
[23:24] *pWp*T@D*: its time to start new
[23:24] *pWp*Big*Buck: new?
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: Im gonna make a new clan...go back to what I wanted pwp to be
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: meh
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: its way out of wack, and wont fix uless we kick ppl
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: i dont wanna do tjat
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: kick people!
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: yes you do
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: ill back you up
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: 100%
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: so will acid
[23:25] *pWp*T@D*: i know u would
[23:25] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: ahh
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: 'i wanna start new
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: pwp has a VERY solid core
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: yes
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: it does
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: it will continue
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: but you need to be apart of it
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: like you said
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: i cant
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: this is ur clan
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: you have a tatto of it
[23:26] *pWp*T@D*: its not what i wanted
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: man
[23:26] *pWp*Big*Buck: make it what you wanted
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: kick people
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: do w/e
[23:27] *pWp*Big*Buck: it takes
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: i cant, its past that point
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: i want it to continue to grow
[23:27] *pWp*T@D*: not slow it down
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*pWp?*Sync*: Within this week
*pWp?*Sync*: You will regain control of pWp
*pWp?*Sync*: You will discuss your concerns on said members that your wish to eject
*pWp?*Sync*: via topic
*pWp?*Sync*: You and *frog will have control of the boards
*pWp?*Sync*: you and *frog will have control of the servers, dedicating rcon and ref to a few only
*pWp?*Sync*: No leader Bs
*pWp?*Sync*: No Cl bs
*pWp?*Sync*: honorary member is cool
*pWp?*Sync*: People get a little power hungry and do things just to move up rank
*pWp?*Sync*: Rank doesn’t matter in pWp Its FUN
*pWp?*Sync*: so, why rank anyway?
*pWp?*Sync*: You know who you can count on
*pWp?*Sync*: Despite their rank, so if you need some help, asking will be none the different
* = Edited
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many more conversations but I don’t need to post them all. The basics I got from people was "pwp is your clan, you and frog made it....if it's changed to what you don’t want, fix it" Well, that’s what’s going to happen. Again, I don’t expect everyone to agree or be happy with the changes; all I ask is that you understand that frog and I put a lot of effort into this, a lot of time, a lot of learning.....before we even had 1 other member. After adding members, there are a lot of people who put the same time and effort in to continue the dream. It's time to get the dream back on the right road.
Here is a list of my personal concerns of how things were, to how they are now. I'll try and point out the differences the best I can.
Then: We all knew a lot about each other. We joked, played the game, scrimmed.
Now: The clan is divided into clicks. I would guess that I have talked no more then 1-3 times with 30% of the members outside of a server.
Then: We said GG after every scrim, win or lose.
Now: It's rarer to see that then see a complaint about either teamwork, camping, hacking...etc.
Then: No one said anything degrading to each other during a scrim.
Now: I have seen team chat and even been yelled at personally by people because I’m not play up to their standards.
Then: Our scrims were to enjoy the game. Win or lose, it was for fun.
Now: The clan cares about wining more then fun.
Then: You messaged anyone you saw on xfire if there was a scrim
Now: Clan members only seem to either ask those to scrim who have a higher value of skill or are in their "click"
Then: When a scrim ended, players rotated in and out with those who were in spec waiting.
Now: Decisions on who stays in are more decided on skill and winning.
Then: We tried to include everyone in every scrim we could. Trying to have everyone take part in the clan.
Now: Clicks and skill again override that.
Then: We did not argue with other clans no matter what they said about us. THAT’S how we gained respect.
Now: We feel the need to "defend" the clan....in a video game....online with people we don't even know.
Then: We all talked to each other in private regarding any personal problems we had with each other.
Now: We post in the forums our dirty laundry.
Then: The decisions made in the clan weren’t questioned except in private.
Now: People again, post negatively without coming to the leaders.
Then: The posts made were in fun and light hearted.
Now: The forums have a dark cloud at times of drama and personal feelings.
There are so many more changes I can state, but we need to put all that behind us....get rid of the now, and go back to the then.
I am posting a new member list. If your name is on it, you are in pWp. If your name is not on it, frog and I have decided that you are no longer apart of the clan. The decisions of why some are no longer on the member list vary, so if you are no longer in the clan, feel free to message frog and I for the reasons. There is also a structure change. The roles posted will be the new roles of each member.
Pending decisions will be posted at the bottom of the list. If you are on the pending list, it is due to frog and I needing to discuss some things with you before a final decision. It does not mean you are being removed from the clan. We just want to talk to you about a few things if you are inclined to do so.
Admin/Founder
*pWp*T@D*
*pWp*FRoG*
Members
*pWp*Big*Buck*
*pWp*Sync*
*pWp*Turtle*
*pWp*Juggernaut*
*pWp*Killbox*
*pWp*Azu *
*pWp*Tomma*
*pWp*AltF4*
*pWp*McDonalds*
*pWp*Wrath*
*pWp*RustySpoon*
*pWp*tr[!]gun*
*pWp*Neko*
*pWp*BlaZe*
*pWp*Asian*
*pWp*Snipeja*
*pWp*Poison*
*pWp*Ghost*
*pWp*W!feY*
*pWp*Shadow*
*pWp*HoOL*
*pWp*K!N$L3R*
*pWp*comprichard*
*pWp*Squ!rrel*
*pWp*Max!ma*
*pWp*Xtreme*
*pWp*Spartan*
*pWp*DavidD*
*pWp*A$H*
*pWp*k0*
*pWp*Tool*
Pending Memberships
*pWp*WakeY*
*pWp*Ant*
*pWp*Abyss*
I included everyone that is in the clan. If you are not on the list, please remove the tags. You are no longer in pwp. There is no longer anyone on trials. Activity will no longer be an issue. Once you are accepted into the pwp family, you will always be accepted into the pwp family until you decide its time for you to move on.
If you are on the list and would like to leave the family, please post. Leaving the clan will not be looked down upon; it is everyone’s personal decision.
Your decisions should be based on this post. Whether or not you feel you fit in to the way pwp is suppose to be. The way pwp is going to be.
I’ll give a few things to think about to help you decide if this is the right place for you. Answer these questions honestly to yourself.
Do I care if I win or lose?
Do I get mad at clan members who play bad in scrims?
Is teamwork more important then fun?
Do I need to post my personal dislikes of others in the forums?
Do I not want to include clan members in scrims due to personal reasons?
Do I not feel apart of the family?
Do I not want to get to know everyone in the clan?
If you personally answer any one of these questions with a YES, then maybe this is not the right clan for you. This is what the clan was built on, and this is where it’s going. If you find yourself questioning any parts of this,that may be an indication this is no longer a suitable home for you.
I have posted on many occasions “if the clan ends up just frog and I again, I’m ok with that”. That still stands. That will always stand.
It’s time for those still on the list to decide if you are part of this or not. It’s going back to being a family, plain and simple.
Here are a few more notes on how things will work:
Dallas is not a *pWp* server. Acid is the sole owner of the server. It will be his decision whether or not the ref section stays in the pwp forums or not and who the ref’s are.
Decisions made in the clan on all aspects including new memberships are reserved for Frog me only. However, we are always up for suggestions, feel free to post or contact any one of us. We are not saying no ones opinions matter by any means, we are just taking full responsibility of what steps the clan takes in the future.
The join topic will remain closed until further notice.
There will be quite a bit of topics removed from the forums that are not inline with the way pwp is suppose to be. They will not be deleted; they will be moved to a place they can not be seen. Therefore, you will not lose post count if that’s important to you.
The {F&F}.Cl@n. will become a club. Further details on that and the server will come soon.
Lastly. I know a few people will say or think “But you are the one who left”. I did, but I can’t see myself losing all the work frog and I put into this. Reaper and buck opened my eyes a lot. If the clan is not what frog and I want it to be, make it that way.
Also, I will take a lot of the blame for what the clan has become in a way. I am not saying “hey, you guys screwed everything up”. I was part of it as well. I made mistakes. I followed the wrong direction many times as well. I see those mistakes now. Now they will be fixed.
That’s what we are going to do.
The ball is in your court now. Time to decide what is best for you; we have decided what is best for the clan.
In either sense, GL in what ever decisions you make.
Sincerely,
T@D and FRoG
Last edited by T@D on Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
