I don't get it.

Why, in my opinion, do religious people feel their opinions/wants/needs are more important then anyone else? Prayer in schools, thats a separation of church and state violation, simple. "In god we trust"... separation of church and state violation again. To display religious "propaganda" on state or Federal property.... guess what? A separation of church and state violation as well. What is the point of promoting a religious symbol in a place that does not cumulatively support the same ideals? I thinks it's beyond pathetic to see a group of people, believing ANYTHING, thinking that their beliefs somehow make them a more important voice then the rest of us. Although I'm an Atheist, I could still care less whether some Christian group flew a Christian flag over their house. Thats their property and their right.... but stop pushing your faction and wanting that same crap in a public, state or federally owned, property. That is no place to promote your religious agendas.

Here's the source of my rant:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101021/ap_on_re_us/us_christian_flag_defenders

It's funny how someone can make a call to the right people, with the right information, for the right reasons... and the christian nut-bags come out of the woodwork like moths to a flame. Impede on your rights? Why are your rights more important? Why is what you believe the golden trail? Bigots. Don't fool yourself to believe your way is the only path. Enjoy that road and I'll enjoy mine. Stay on your side and I'll stay on mine. Cross that road and I am given the opportunity to tell you to fuck off.

What's the point in protesting anyway? Why just not "pray". god will come and fix everything, right?

People blew their load when the government stood up for the abolishment of prayer in schools.... and the fuck-wad "christian community" went ape shit. But did they realize that a school sanctioned prayer session was a violation of the separation of church and state ideals? That's what this country was based on. It wasn't based on religion. Although some or most were religious, they did not want the country to take any type of stand on religion in any way. "Freedom of religion".... don't those douche-sacks understand that also means "freedom FROM religion"?

You keep your "stuff" in your buildings, that are paid for partly by your criminalistic, yet unfortunately legal "tax evasion"... and the rest of us will keep our opinions to ourselves.

A quote from one of the "activists"...

"This monument stands as hallowed ground," said Martini, a tall, trim man with a tattoo on his right arm commemorating the day in 1988 when he became a born-again Christian. "It kills me when I think people want to essentially desecrate it."

Desecrate it by removing something that legally shouldn't be there in the first place? How about placing a big-Ole pagan symbol flag in front of a state building... that's ok?

Fucking sheep.

90% of you ass wipes have not even looked into what you believe to begin with. Your just following what you were "taught" by other uneducated dip-shits. Do some educated research mixed in with a little common sense.... then talk.

I'm not sure if my feelings are quite as strong as TaD's here, but i do agree with him. The bottom line is, the Christian flag has no more right to be flying over that monument than any other flag. I'm not sure why it was like that in the first place, but it wasn't legally supposed to be there anyway. If all the people that monument was dedicated to were Christian, then fine, but I haven't read anything of the sort. In my opinion, the only flag that should be flying over that monument is the American flag.

However, I don't think the protesters should be judged so harshly. No one likes change. This has been like that for quite a while, and a lot of people liked it that way. When people used their rights to get the flag removed, these people decided they could use their rights to keep it. Obviously they can't since it's the violation of the law, but still, can't blame them for trying. It's their right. Also, if that were a Muslim flag, or a Jewish flag, and it was getting taken down, I have no doubt it would incite some descent from the Muslim/Jewish community as well. It just happens to be the Christian community this time.

Overall, I agree with you TaD, but I don't think the Christians are douche-sacks for protesting. I agree that they're wrong, and that as a Christian, I certainly don't think the flag belongs there, but some people believe in it more strongly than me, and that any person is capable of this, not just Christians.

I highly doubt you see any Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, or any other "religion" based people besides christians at this little vigil. My belief on them being "douche-sacks" for their protest is simple... it's pointless. Take it to court, fight for an injunction, or a stay of the counsels decision, don't parade yourselves like morons on national TV. What exactly are they going to accomplish? Publicity... thats it. Another bout of extremists 15 minutes of fame. If they disagree, that is a right, but what are they trying to prove? That a few people can gather around a piece of fabric that is illegally put there? Again, if it was a flag promoting the Jews or Muslims.... the christians would be at court or on TV blowing a fit. It's pathetic to me. There is a judicial system in place for a reason.... use it.

Although they have no leg to stand on in the 1st place.

I'm not saying this particular case, I'm saying in general. ANY group and ANY type of person is capable of this, not just Christians. Humans. Human nature. Like you said, half these guys probably didn't even notice the flag before now. It's about the attention and publicity. It's the ole' "I'm going to make an ass out of myself to get on TV! :DDD" kind of mindset. Not all Christians should judged by the actions of a few imbeciles. Not that I'm saying you are, just in general.

I completely agree that not all christians are that way. I wasn't trying to suggest that. It's the "extremists." People always only consider that word for the wack-job terrorists.... but anyone that takes flight to a cause that goes against legitimate laws and what should be social consistencies (unfortunately isn't most of the time) and has to use the media outlets to for something like this that goes against the constitution just to propagate their agenda to me is an extremest. Believe what you believe... but keep on your side of the fence.... I'll stay on mine.

Another quote from a flag protester:

"We've let our religious freedoms and constitutional rights be stripped away one by one, and I think it's time we took a stand," King resident James Joyce said.

I'll edit this post tomorrow with my opinions. It may take me that long to figure out exactly what that guy is smoking.... and where to get me some.

Edit:

What religious freedoms is he talking about? Again, to bring up prayer in schools.... it's not removed from schools... it's just not constitutional to impose those ideologies on the general masses.....THATS a constitutional right. Not being able to have a school mandate prayer. For christ's sakes, they have private/religious schools, if you want your school to have a religious overtone or harbor religious beliefs... send them there. Oh wait, I forgot.... those schools are expensive but still pay no taxes. They can not claim they are losing their constitutional rights when realistically the constitutional rights of the general public are the ones being infringed upon.

It's a selfish, ignorant, and borderline crazy notion to believe that the rights that they do NOT have are more important to the rights that others DO have.

Simply to play devil's advocate, I'm just going to point out an argument one of these people could make could make.

T@D wrote:I completely agree that not all christians are that way. I wasn't trying to suggest that. It's the "extremists." People always only consider that word for the wack-job terrorists.... but anyone that takes flight to a cause that goes against legitimate laws and what should be social consistencies (unfortunately isn't most of the time) and has to use the media outlets to for something like this that goes against the constitution just to propagate their agenda to me is an extremest. Believe what you believe... but keep on your side of the fence.... I'll stay on mine.

Isn't that a lot like the American Revolution? Isn't that a lot like the Civil Rights Act? Isn't that a lot like a lot of significant turning points in this nation's history? Some of these people truly believe for some bizarre reason that their rights are being violated here, and they're fighting to protect them. Sure it may seem small, but to them it's the first step to having all their religious rights taken away. They think they're being noble, like M.L.K. during the Civil Rights movement. Now do I personally think this is anything near as important as the Civil Rights movement? Of course not. Do I think they're being overdramatic? Certainly. But I like to at least try to see it from their view point.

I completely understand your point... but you are comparing apples and oranges to a large extent. The Civil Rights movement were people fighting for what they should have had to begin with via the Constitution. These people are fighting against the constitution saying their rights are being violated in some way. Huh?. Civil Rights promotes equality, prancing around a illegally placed flag promotes segregation.... the exact opposite. They have not lost 1 religious right. They are more then welcome to promote their agenda legally in any venture they choose. Hell, they even have their own channels to promote themselves. MLK had to rely on word of mouth, written print, and the occasional TV coverage in a country that TV's were fare more scarce for the general public then they are today. And to boot, no Internet.

MLK was an innovator, a genius, and a humble soul fighting the general population to promote the things that were rightfully his. He was using laws in place that had been clouded by the selfish, arrogant, and ignorant general white population that feared, for no reason, a different race being equal to them.

IMO, their point of view is obscured by their selfish agenda.... force-feed their religious beliefs on the general masses whether they like it or not. Would it personally effect me if the flag goes back? No. But it's not about personal thoughts or preferences..... it's about laws and the constitution.

These protesters are fighting for something that is not legal. It's not their right to have a religious flag on state owned property. They believe their beliefs are more important then the laws made hundreds of years ago that were the basis of this country.... and they are "standing up against them".... MLK stood up for them.

EDIT:
I didn't reply about the American Revolution part. The American Revolution, again, is apples and oranges. Our government fighting against the mistreatment of another country that ultimately had control of this land STILL has no comparison to this situation. Our forefathers fought for independence from tyrants that realistically were suppressing the people here, over taxing them, and basically putting marshal law in place to do what they pleased. The British guard didn't even adhere to the laws of their land, they did what they pleased. The general population fighting against teh mistreatment of their people is, well, patriotic. Fighting the government on a case that is already written in black and white is just plain ignorant. They don't want equality. They don't want everyones voice to matter.... just theirs.

I just want to point out that the two examples I gave were just two things I thought of off the top of my head. They weren't meant to be compared literally, I was trying to conjure the point that these people think that they are being like those people. Not that I think they are. Is their thought process diluted? Of course. I'm just trying to paint their picture for the sake of argument. Force of habit I guess.

Anywho, I think we've just about exhausted our arguments for this topic, unless you have another point to add?

T@D wrote:Why, in my opinion, do religious people feel their opinions/wants/needs are more important then anyone else? Prayer in schools, thats a separation of church and state violation, simple.

from what i understand, the only prayer that's allowed in public schools is a private prayer, and can only be led by students with other students, but my sister goes to a private school and it's a christian based school, but since it's private they are allowed to lead prayer even with the separation of church and state

I don't think I could have said it better than clip did.

Although true Christians don't go out force feeding people their religious beliefs. I don't see them forcing anything really they are just voicing their opinions. Anyways I don't think it is a big deal..

For example what about the lady in Disneyland that demanded that she could wear her head thing or w/e it is called. They actually had to design a whole thing just for her and her beliefs. Now we can go on talking about this topic and say the same thing. She gets the right to her religious beliefs but what about the others?

I mean if people don't like it then they don't have to listen to it or participate.

In fact one school told the kids that if they don't want to hear it they can plug their ears.

This is actually quite a touchy topic because if you take it away you offend religious people in which it has been there for a long time and then you know how people are these days.. they go to the extremes and say "oh your against religious people"

Anyways.. kind of ramble and not much of an organized writing but ehh im about to leave my house so yea.

I see what you're trying to say Virt. I see we have quite a few Atheists here, which I have no problem with. Technically, I'm Christian, because that was how I was baptized when I was younger and everything. But really, I don't have opinions on this that coincide with just one form of religion. I tend not to label myself, because I just don't see the need for it. Labels cause problems. Sometimes I think it would be better if the concept of specific religions had never been founded, but I suppose it was inevitable because labels help sooth people's insecurities about who they are. I do not have said insecurities, therefore don't feel the urge to label myself. If the topic ever comes up, I can delve deeper into the specifics of my beliefs, but will leave that alone for right now.

nodata wrote:

T@D wrote:Why, in my opinion, do religious people feel their opinions/wants/needs are more important then anyone else? Prayer in schools, thats a separation of church and state violation, simple.

from what i understand, the only prayer that's allowed in public schools is a private prayer, and can only be led by students with other students, but my sister goes to a private school and it's a christian based school, but since it's private they are allowed to lead prayer even with the separation of church and state

That is how it should be. If someone want's to pray, let them.... but the schools that are state or federally funded should not mandate prayer in the students daily life.

As far as your sister... she goes to a PRIVATE school, not state or federally funded. That is not a conflict of separation of church and state when the ideals of the school are religious and it is privately funded.

I think you are missing the point about this specific flag situation. I will reply inside your quote in red so it's easier.

virtuosity wrote:

For example what about the lady in Disneyland that demanded that she could wear her head thing or w/e it is called. They actually had to design a whole thing just for her and her beliefs. Now we can go on talking about this topic and say the same thing. She gets the right to her religious beliefs but what about the others? I never said or implied that someone can't have their beliefs. I have actually, on many occasions, said the exact opposite. And think about things realistically. Why would Disney do something like that? Money. To curve bad publicity. Do you think Disney "cares" about anyones religious beliefs? No. They accommodated her because of the possible backlash and media coverage that would have made them look inconsiderate. They did what was right.... from a business standpoint. But this has nothing to do with flying a religious flag on Government property. Again, apples and oranges.

I mean if people don't like it then they don't have to listen to it or participate. Shouldn't that go both ways? Seems unfair for those who don't want to hear things to have to be the ones to cover their ears. The same argument could be made from the other side..."I don't like it, so please do it elsewhere".

In fact one school told the kids that if they don't want to hear it they can plug their ears. Smart school. Glad to see the leaders there are doing their part to segregate everyone. Are they that fucking stupid? Listen... there is no school that will not allow praying. It is allowed in every public school... but the laws dictate that it can not be a school mandated policy. Schools are allowing students to create clubs or groups for a variety of things... religion is one. Some schools go out of their way to give those groups times and places to do what they will.... I'm fine with that. But NO classroom of the general student population should have to be subjected so even the majorities beliefs. That causes segregation and picks people out for embarrassment and worse.

If anyone actually took the time to READ the bible.... when did jesus walk into a public gathering place and start his preaching? Never. His sermons were always placed somewhere out of the public eye and attended by people who wanted to be there... not people that just happened to be there. He may have had many 1 on 1 talks with people in public places, but he never went to Pilots castle, or Harod's, or the tax collectors buildings, schools, or even churches.

I will respect anyones right to pray... but they can't respect my right to not have it in a place it doesn't legally belong? Plug my ears? Blow me. The problem is that the church only follows the things that benefit them as a whole... if it doesn't, well.... they bitch up a storm and protest.

What ever happened to "Turn the other cheek"? Hypocrites.