Another religion rant

Posted this on FB the other day...


As always, I have been reading the bible as often as I can to basically learn what people believe and why people are believers, and also to validate my reasonings for being an atheist. I was looking farther into a story that everyone knows. The Exodus.


I'm going to start with the first part:
What I learned (the basics) is that god talked to Moses through a burning bush to free "his people" from Pharaoh. Moses went, asked....was told no. So Moses was told to tap his staff on the ground, and it made a snake. So Pharaoh's "magicians" also re-created the same thing. Then Aaron then made lice. Pharaoh's people couldn't re-create that....giving Moses the best "show and tell" award for the day. But let me understand something. God allowed "magic" to prove Moses has power...but yet is unable to do that since the bible was written? He turned a staff into a snake, turned water into wine, raised the dead.....yet not one single thing like that has happened, ever recorded, outside of the bible? And how did Pharaoh's magicians do the same thing? I assume it was Satan, right? He gave the power to Pharaoh's people so they could turn a staff into a snake. So, Satan has that same power, wants everyone to be doomed to hell and turn their backs on God, seems (from this story) to have "powers"...yet even he has not done one thing "magical" in recorded history aside from one book. Don't you find that odd? So both of them could turn a stick into a snake to show their power....yet today neither do anything visual or record-able at all to even prove their existence. And I know, I know...."God will not be tested". But what about the Devil? I assume he dances to the beat of a different drummer.....wouldn't he make himself measurable in existence? Wouldn't there be a sign on the moon visible to the human eye saying "God is full of shit, come with me.....you can be rich"? Wouldn't there be at least one, extremely famous/rich person who was an open Satan worshiper as a draw to that "side"? There's not. There's nothing to prove either.....never has been.


Second part:
Basically I was taught that Moses kept asking Pharaoh to let his people go. Pharaoh kept saying no, so god kept "punishing" them for not letting the people go in ways of "The 10 plagues" . So, if I understand this right.... Moses asked for his people to be freed, was told no, so god sent frogs. Moses went back and asked again, was told no, so god turned the water into blood.....and so on. Up until god killed the 1st born of every family....then Pharaoh decided to let them go. He had a change of mind though and went after them, so god killed the army in the Red Sea. That basically sums it up......except what the bible says. After each plague....Pharaoh wanted to let them go......god wouldn't let him. Even after teh "rod into a snake" bit..Pharaoh was going to let them all go....god wouldn't let him. "EX 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses." So I'm not mistaken, god made Pharaoh not give in....then punished him? And even more oddly, basically used Pharaoh as a puppet, controlling him then said to Moses "see, I told you he would do that". Is this a joke?


These are reasons I believe the way I do. The bible is completely full of stories like this....and the sad part is 99% don't take the time to actually read. The base all their beliefs off of things they are told. Including the belief in god. How come religion is typically based on region? Because that's what they were taught as kids. Pretty much everyone disagrees with the Westboro Baptist Church and their "God hates fags" speech.....but if you notice, most of their members (80%+ I believe) are family members. Why? Because it's how they are raised. If you are a "strong christian"...you would be a "strong muslim" if you were born in Arab countries. Your belief is regional...your belief is either from your parents or based on beliefs of peers/surroundings.....with very few exceptions.


I have no problem with people believing in a god. And who knows, maybe there is some "higher power".....but the bible? Come on. Yes, there are moral teachings, as can be found in a ton of other books.....but to claim this is the "word of god" is disturbing. But what is more disturbing is the fact that the people that believe this book, rarely actually take the time to read it. They read what they want, and toss the rest. They change it to fit their lives. They don't actually take the time to read the entire stories....just what suits their needs. It's pathetic. If you believe, then believe and do what the bible tells you. Don't be rich, give to teh government what is the governments (money/taxes) with out complaints, turn the other cheek. Stop living a 1/2 ass christian life because it "works for you". It only dilutes your believed purpose. And please stop with the "Praise god that my cancer stricken grandma had a test and they say she is in remission!!" or "Thank god that my kid who fell out the window only has minor injuries". Atheists have the same rate of diseases. Same rate of recovery. But, a lower rate of divorce and crime....funny how that works. If you are going to thank god for the healing....who do you condemn for the situation in the first place? And before I hear "god doesn't give to anyone anything they can't handle" again....tell that to the millions who committed suicide. Where was he there?


You wouldn't go see a civil rights movement from someone in a Nazi outfit, so stop posting about "god" and the bible of you can't even follow your own religions. If there was a god, and he made a heaven.....who would get in? The people who believed in him but wouldn't take the time to actually follow most of his "word"? Or the people that used the brain he gave them to realize he has never actually given any proof of his existence. I vote the ladder.

Oh no, you must be the devil in disguise god is going to smite you for disobeying him and disproving religion, he might even turn your computer into wine!

Nice interpretation, agree with you tad
btw. you forgot to mention that the Bible, has been made from only few of all known stories... the ones which were chosen by pope - where interpretation was easy to change to own purposes... stories which wasn't useful or could make pplz wonder about popes authority has been burned to ash and people who remembered it and tried to save it got killed...
I highly dount that in bible we got "words of God"... Bible was made by people who didn't followed "rules from god" like don't kill, love others etc. It wasn't working anymore and was replaced by "do whats pope and priests says or die in the name of god".


Btw. Some stories still can have 2nd way of interpretation... like one with Judas who "betray" Jesus...
I think there can be the interpretation that Judas betray Jesus cause Jesus told him to do it.
They says remorses made Judas suicide, but I kinda doubt that someone would betray friend(knowing they will kill him), to save own ass from tortures or death and then short after execution of this friend kill self... it's insane, irrational, no logic there at all...

How much logic did they really have 2000 years ago? People doing magic tricks would probably be so easy... OH MY GOD HE TURNED THAT WATER INTO WINE! (trickery!)

Well i was recently being taught about the design theory/ william paly's design argument and the cosmological argument, and found they are as comprehensive that they even contradict themselves.

condensed version of the design argument:

1. a watch is very complex, and you would obviously assume it was made by a watchmaker, not by chance
2. The universe is much more complex than a watch
3. so surely the universe must need a designer?

ok fair enough, the logic works but this is mere philosophy and as so many other great religious philosophers have said, religion can't be proved, and i would rather adopt the precautionary "innocent until proven guilty" mantra.

Then the telelogical argument, which is even better:

1. The big bang may have started the universe expanding in the way it did.
2. But physics tells us that something must have started that in turn, as each action has an equal and opposite reaction, and if an action is 0, the reaction is thus 0
3. You scientists can't think of anything else, so we are going to use this as a way to promote religion. God started the Big bang!

So what we have here is a prime example of contradiction, and the obvious contradictive response is "well what started God?". And it should knock religious philosophers to their knees, but sadly it doesn't, as God is apparantly (according to modern christian belief) "past human understanding".

Well that's great, you can't understand something and yet believe in it and philosophise over it... if you can't play by the normal rules of belief (PROOF) then at least play by your own?

my point is that if you can't prove God, please stop trying to do so, as i really don't think that christian belief can be much more than mislead or blind. By the way tad, your point about belief systems being chosen by region (and therefore merely BLIND BELIEF) not by choice, is a very good one and i am sure to keep it in my head for future debates

okay, all out stupidly true reply coming from me:

part of the reason i'm an athiest now is because as a child i hated wasting two hours of a perfectly good sunday listening to some guy in a fancy black suit talk about some "divine lord" or "jesus christ" or anything like that. YES, i said wasting. now i have other reasons, of course, including in part, what EarthQuake said, if you can't prove it exists, stop trying to push your insanity upon other people. this religious movement in turn brings about intolerance and war.
think about the Nazis in WW2, who believed in the Aryan race and superiority, they slaughtered the Jewish people because they were a "disease that must be exterminated" and they "held back Germany's full potential". this brings about another round of questions.

What TRULY started this intolerance between human beings?

Didn't we all evolve from the same low-intelligence species?

Why is religion so important in modern society?

i apologize for the double post, but i was a bit vague in that description.

the nazis saw the jews as an obstacle that must be destroyed in order to realize their objective, why would religion or beliefs such as that drive a group of people to slaughter innocent people?

I see what you are trying to say, but i think in this case it is more that Hitler started the nazis off in that direction and convinced them through propaganda and fear that they needed to exile and kill all jews. In actual fact, he was merely exersising his powers in order to get at a weak ethnic group whom he felt had betreyed him in the past, as a child.

who knows what's actually true, what i said about the nazi's reasoning was pretty much straight from a history textbook that i stole from my school a long time ago.

Plagiarism

This is an exam?

i didn't plagiarize it, i re-worded it. plagiarism is mostly a direct word-for-word copy/paste kinda thing. what i'm saying is, it's essentially what was said in the textbook, anyways, what the fuck does plagiarism have to do with this?

blade felt that he couldnt participate in such an educated conversation and felt left out (as there are only about 10 active topics on pwp these days) so he came in and posted some random shit.

BTW loving the cookies thing, dont know how long that has been like that but hey its still cool!

Well I think that religion had always only one goal - give the power to it's creator...
Crusades, witch hunting, 2nd world war, etc. all was about to get more lands, power and more people to rule...
Killing in the name of the god, king, country, race - all cause of fairy tales created by some despot who wanted more and more power.

Hitler didn't started this war cause of religion, he was Jew him self. He wanted to make Arian race the masters of Europe.
Thanks to history and religion, he knew that dummies and fanatics are easy to rule. His fanatics killed not only Jews. He wanted them also to get rid of intelligent people in Europe as well. Ofc. he started in Poland cause wanted goods of this lands and also wanted win with country who usually kicked Germans ass every time they crossed the border.
Dunno if you heard about places like Trablinka or Oswiecim - Germans killed there not only thousands of Jews but also thousands of wise Polish (and not only Polish) people - students, proffesors, officers... just everyone who would become someday a good leader wa on their list.
All was cause of power, religion was just one of many excuses.

EARTH_QUAKE wrote:blade felt that he couldnt participate in such an educated conversation and felt left out (as there are only about 10 active topics on pwp these days) so he came in and posted some random shit.

BTW loving the cookies thing, dont know how long that has been like that but hey its still cool!

I can participate in this conversation, issue is I'm too lazy to read it all atm, so I'm skimming, and in my skimming I saw Roach make a post and I figured since I've known him for so long, I could fuck with him.

And I was right.

indeed you were.

yeah shini i guess that's something most people don't know of, but very interesting. It would appear that not all religious leaders have that objective, but yes the power religion (supposedly worshipping god) can give to man (yea, fucked up!?!) can easily be corrupted. Or manipulated. But i think you are right in that hitler did not actually use the idea of religion, but the arian race thing is not far off a fanatical religion

I saw this on a Christian facebook page... (through a few friends shares)

"Once God forgives you, all traces of your past offenses are gone. His forgiveness wipes away any feelings of guilt or blame. Let it GO!!"

Not maybe I am reading more into this then I should.... But is that suggesting that once you "are forgiven, nothing to had done matters any more"? What about the people effected by things you do? If you do something wrong that harms someone...do they have to "let it go" too after you are "forgiven"? And would that work in courts? "Yes your honor, I did do those things.....but god forgave me, so they don't count anymore". I don't get it.

That point always didn't sit well with me. I remember growing up and hearing about the Ted Bundy case from Dr. Dobson saying Ted Bundy had repented and was in heaven (after his execution for rape and murder of 30 people). How is that "just"? That can happen, but a Jew, Muslim, Atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, or any non-christian can live a "moral" life...... actually mirror the bibles teachings (Only the sociological moral ones of course), love their neighbor, help the needy....all while being truly genuine...but they go to hell. But as a christian, it doesn't matter what you do, who you hurt, or how you live your life...... as long as before you die, you are "forgiven".

If anything sounds immoral to me, it's notions like that..

Yes actually... that's a really a fundamental piont of christianity that you will be rewarded in the afterlife, if you have followed God's will. But the next belief is that God is benevolant, and thus will fogive any sin, provided you are truly sorry for what you have done. In this, surely what happens on Earth is truly irrelevant, if the consequence of helping someone and shooting them is the same.

I was thinking the other day that if there was a world without suffering "evil" there would be no good either, beacuase good can be basically defined in it's contrast to "bad". So one theory is that God wanted humans to have free will, and to give them the chance to help others and lead a righteous life. But what is the point of that "test" if the people who fail are admitted to heaven regardless.

Too many contradictions. screw literalism!

But the "test" is worthless. Debating this on FB with a few christian friends, they truly believe that as long as your "heart" is right when you die.... it doesn't matter. So I feel as an atheist, I have an obligation to society to live with in moral standards..... what is a christians moral standard? They seem to believe it has no worth in life, as long as you are "right" before death. So why do they bother? Is it for the same reasons as an atheist? And if it is.... then why do some tend to look at atheists as automatically amoral?

yes... i see your point. It seems in this case (your christian friends clearly don't posess the power of consideration) that atheists could almost end up with greater morals, although i don't think many christians could justify to themselves living a sinful life knowing they can still cheat their way into heaven by smiling sweetly at the end.
It has also made me wonder whether a religious person and an atheist, living the same life are actually equal in morals.

Surely if you are living a good life, simply because it's your philosophy that being nice to people and helping those less fortunate out, you are a better person than someone who is comitting selfless actions, because they have their eyes greedily on an eternity in heaven with God.

I personally see more purity in atheist moral values. Christians use a book/deity as a moral compass. I live a specific way due to having a positive impact on society, my family, and myself. The problem with christian morality is that most of them expect their beliefs to be forced on others. Which in it self, isn't moral.

your elephant is bouncing way faster than usual (probably beacuase i swapped to firefox). Does that happen when you get angry? lol.

I also agree with you on your first point at the top. The bible talks about many supernatural occurances... the like of which have never been seen again. And if God is all knowing, and the bible is the only way modern christians can get to believe Him... wouldn't He make it a bit more reasonable?

Maybe god and satan just have a shitty PR team and that's why don't hear about all the supernatural awesome things nowadays. I mean, god's favorite male-model is an old bastard wearing white robes and a ridiculous hat, like, seriously dude? It's 2012, some booby-showing can't hurt your cause. Get with the times, old man.



On a more serious note, the thing with religious people and the bible is an iffy topic. If you point out the ridiculousness of it, then the automatic defense is that it's not meant to be taken literally. Oh, except on those times when taking it literally fits the cause. The thing is I think we are overestimating the amount of faith that exists today, I wonder what is the percentage of catholics that actually practice it? I mean, I know in the US being a god-loving american is, well, the 'american thing to do', but outside of these people wanting to identify and assert their american-ness, how many do actually believe and play by the rules? I'd say the percent is in the single digits. I know everyone around me identifies as catholic, but none of them actually give a shit about it other than their being able to turn onto god for support here and then when things get on the rough side.

I agree with you on that, and it does "devalue" the issues we are raising in this topic. I suspect that, furthermore, not many people who claim to be Catholic for example would actually, in the right circumstances and in the privacy of their own home abstain due to belief against contraception (always the example...).

And even more to the point, i doubt that all of these people actually believe in God flawlessly.If it is the done thing to believe, people will even begin to feel guilty at themselves following non-belief. (I was the devil planting thoughts... temptation) What i'm getting at is... um not sure. Apart from don't take people 100% literal when they spell out what they "belive"; when nobody's looking (God is omniscient and immanent) whos to say they will follow it.

But if there are, as Jeff and I constantly like to point out, so many and so large fundamental issues with the Bible and whole of Christianity as a package... It doesn't matter how loosely (or "liberally" - in fact doesn't that sound like being freed from a bad thing?) you follow it... one has to doubt it. Even if you believe in God, being sold a story so full of errors and contradictions just can't work in one whole package. Either believe in parts of christian belief, on minimal evidence, or believe there "Is" but you don't know what It is.

Do you believe in everything other people tell you? (Theism) Or do you want to see evidence before you commit to changing your life? (most atheists, other than those who HATE the idea of God)

Most of religious people don't really believe in god, it's for them only perfect excuse for disrespecting and hating others for being different or just because they don't share the same point of view.
They say they love god, but they don't really follow their holy book and decalogue. They are disrespecting, hypocrites who in every possible way trying to spread hate to everything and everyone who is different and don't want to be like them - best example: find some article in internet about some decision of government which affect church - you will see posts made by group of haters who act like little Hitlers. And it's like this in every country on the world.