God or not.

First topic message reminder :

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?

>.<

I think its hard to have a debate about something that cannot be proven or disproved. I personally do not believe in a god but I am not denying its existence. Anything is possible some things are just very unlikely. It is possible that I will grow wings by tomorrow morning and fly to school, but will I? Probably not.

the saying anything is possible is false

Actually, the existence of any deity or "kingdom" in the heavens have been very disproved by many famous scientists. It's just the stubbornness of most believers that keep the faith alive.

This may sound like a "taunt", but I really don't mean it to be. I would like, however, for those who believe in a god explain this to me with out using the term "it was just gods will".

I have quite a few people on facebook that I grew up with. Almost all of them are from church/private school. Most have actually stayed in the religious business. This person hasn't, but still follows the same ideals that we grew up with. Her name is Lisa. I will post some things from her facebook. Story is: Her brother got really sick. He needed a transplant to have a chance to survive.

Her Post:
update on Mike: no longer septic! no other infections! biggest issue is managing his pain without medications that sedate him. he has to be awake and alert to get a transplant!!!

Replies to that post:
-thats good i pray that happens soon
-Praise God...HE is sooo good:)
-She that my honey bun, prayers do work. Love you Sista!
-Wonderful news! Prayers continue.
-Great news. Am praying for less pain and a quick resolution.

Her next post:
although the earlier update was accurate at the time, Mikes doctors believe that he is in a much deeper coma than thought...they do not offer a good prognosis. my sis-in-law has asked to wait until Monday before they remove life support.

Replies to that post:
-Let's get some more prayers going people. Sorry ur going through this Lisa. Nothing easy about it.
-We love you. Thoughts and prayers are with you and family
-u got my prayers cuz
-Lisa you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.
-I am so sorry to hear that Lisa. I will keep him in my prayers that God healing hands will touch him and he will come around! By HIS stripes we are healed!
-Oh Lisa...God is a God of miracles and I'll pray for one. Also pray for peace for your sis-in-law and your family. We are loosing my aunt right now and I know how when a heart hurts...it is so hard to understand. I am praying God hugs you all thru this time.
-Beleive in miracles as we all pray. Love you.
-I love you Lisa, We will continue this chain of prayers for you Mike and Linda and family. You have alot of prayer warriors out there. as they told me God will not put anything on yalls shoulders that you can't handle. May God be with you and Aunt Francis and all the family.
-Saying many prayers for you and your family lately. I have lots of why's running through my head, but can only be comforted with the verse jer 29 11 where God promises that he alone knows the plans for us...praying that peace will come to you all...and strength and clarity and wisdom. Love ya.

A few days later, she posted again:
my brother passed away this morning...

Replies to that post:
-So sorry Lisa. Our thoughts, prayers, and love are with y'all. We're here if you need anything.
-If we can do something for you down here, then please let us know. You will remain in our prayers during this sad time for your family.
-I'm so sorry, Lisa! My deepest condolences. Many thoughts and prayers for you and your family. If there is anything I can do for you, please let me know!
-So very sad to hear of your loss Lisa, you and your family will be in my prayers.
-Lisa and family, We are so sorry for your lost and will continue to pray for strength and peace for all of you. God bless you and watch over you. We love you. If there is anything you need please let us know.
-Lisa, sooooo sorry to hear that! I will be praying for your family...its a blessing that your brother knew Jesus!! He will be celebrating Christmas with the angels in heaven!
-Very sorry to hear about your families lost. Praying that Gods strength and peace touch your whole family to help you through this difficult time.

Anyone else see what happened there? I would like to call it "nature". She made a post that her brother was ill, and everyone stepped up to say they would pray. Then a little while later posted that things weren't looking good. Again, everyone stepped up to pray. Then he died. And everyone.... stepped up to pray? Well, it didn't seem to help much the first two times, did it?. I don't understand that "god" would spend the time to make sure a car starts so someone can get to a game.... but yet won't listen to prayers from people that want something miraculous to save someones life. What a waste of a "supreme being". What is the point of praying for something that "he" is going to do his own thing anyway.... no matter what you ask.




I think this story is proof that god is telling me I am right for being an atheist.

While atm I'm agnostic(cuz I'm more indecisive about my religion than I am names and favorite bands), I do know that praying to keep someone alive is a form of greed...you're being selfish and wanting a person to stay alive...problem is everyone dies at some point and there's no getting around it.

Yes, they prayed to keep him alive, but if he did live there's a chance the transplant would fail and he'd die anyway...there's always that lingering possibility, and say the transplant failed, he'd likely die in a more painful way...and that would cause even more pain for the family.

So him dying could've been an act of mercy toward the family so they wouldn't suffer future pain.

And I know there's that possibility everything would go right...but I don't have faith in doctors cuz thanks to their idiocy they caused the death of my grandmother while she was in surgery...

So if I pray for somebody not to die, think they'll die? I'll try it when I have an enemy.

Oh... Tad it's obvious what happened. It was opposite day in heaven. Duh.

This thread has become ridiculous and has been for some time. First of all, h3av4n's story about the car was an awful example of what he was trying to say, and honestly just made anyone who is on the 'God is real' side of the argument look silly. Just stop paying attention to it.

Secondly, Tad, your post isn't a good example either. Everyone always says, "I'll pray for you and your family" and things like that. It's just a way in which people express their sorrow and condolences. Frankly, you're pretty much insulting them, and people like them, for expressing their sorrow in their own way, whether intentionally or not. People die. They always have and they always will. This is nothing new.

So you are saying they were lying about praying? That it was just words and not actions? If people believe in a god, believe that there is power in prayer... then tell people they are going to use their time and pray for someones situation. For your reasonings to make sense, you would have to conclude that everyone that said they were praying were just giving lip service and never actually followed through. That they used the term "pray for you" as a comfort line and didn't pray for anything..... so, who's insulting who?

My post was simple, to the point, and although may not be agreed on, should be understood by even a child.

Fact: She posted news that things were looking up. Some people posted basically how great "god" was for the progress. Her next post saying things were worse then she thought were followed with more prayer for healing and a full recovery. The next post he had passed away. Then the prayers changed to the family for their loss.

Deduction: Prayer did absolutely nothing. I didn't paste every reply, but they all followed the same road. Absolutely nothing happened from prayer. In fact, they were given false hope that things were looking up... which people jumped up saying was "gods" doing only to find out that there was a man made error.

And if you read even the first line of my post "This may sound like a "taunt", but I really don't mean it to be. I would like, however, for those who believe in a god explain this to me with out using the term "it was just gods will"..... it was never intended to be an example of anything... it was a simple question.


If this thread has become ridiculous to you, then why bother replying in the first place. You telling people to "stop paying attention" to the story told earlier by heaven and that my post was "insulting" are your opinions. You are more then welcome to have them.

As far as my opinion, your post seems to be the least relative in this entire thread.

You clearly didn't understand what I was saying at all just by reading the first line of your post. It is also apparent that you think I was trying to insult you because you implied I was as dumb as a child, which was very mature on your part. "This guy doesn't agree with me so I will call him dumb." Well done.

It was a question and I gave you an answer. People die. Everybody knows that praying doesn't save lives or else or else everyone would still be alive. That was your answer. You clearly took it the wrong way.

I hadn't posted in this topic before now because I knew this would be the response I would get. However, today I thought to myself that maybe I could give an opinion without people taking it personally and resorting to immature insults. I was wrong.

You didn't say you didn't understand my point, so that line "My post was simple, to the point, and although may not be agreed on, should be understood by even a child." wouldn't make sense if I was directing it at you. Actually, I was reiterating that my point should be easy to understand and actually broke it down after that line. And I didn't take your reply to me as an insult. No one is wrong for what they believe.

The issue I had was that your reply didn't answer my question the way I was hoping. So I tried to make it more of a zero'd in question. You answered with basically "life is part of death". And I agree. But what I am asking is, to people that believe in prayer, why would a god not only seem to ignore people's prayers, but allow them to have false hope by a mans mistake. And allow them to use that false hope to "praise" him... only to see in the end that he did nothing and it was just a mistake. Wouldn't a loving god at least say "hey guys, don't praise me for that info you got because it was wrong"

Now, you are saying "Everybody knows that praying doesn't save lives" and although I agree, it's apparent that quite a few people do. If the people that posted that they were going to pray for healing "know" that praying won't change the outcome, then why bother praying at all? Why bother bringing it up at all?

Again, your conclusion that praying won't save someones life is your answer to you. But I'm asking for those that do believe in the "power of prayer" to answer.

Prayer for personal gain wasn't what it was originally designed to be...it was originally made to give your problems away to God and for you to not worry yourself with them anymore cuz they're not your problems anymore, they're God's

You must really believe me to be a moron if you expect me to believe that first paragraph.

And to answer the false hope question, I'm not even saying there's a God. I don't care one way or the other. But people need hope. They pray because it gives them hope, however pointless it may be. Who cares? Who the fuck cares if they pray, even if it's pointless as hell? It's what they do because it gives them hope and maybe happiness. You want people who believe in the power of prayer to answer, but here's the thing, no one on this planet believes that prayer can solve anything, even people from death. No one. It is a well known fact that prayer doesn't solve everything. If i did, no one would have any problems. Like I said, it all comes down to hope.

Rape, war, death, hunger, destruction, torture, disease, filth, poverty, and murder. Sounds like some supreme being is fucking around up there.

"Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude." - George Carlin, R.I.P.

Everyone needs something to believe in, whether it's the simplicity of chance, or a being of absolute power.

If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

I believe in logic and reason. With those two, I will never lose sight of what is wrong or right, what is fact or fiction, or what life's purpose is. Both of these things will do more for me than God ever will, and if the world believed in logic and reason, it would benefit everyone more as well. Unfortunately, that is not the case. And as you can see, without logic or reason we have war, poverty, and all the other horrors that plague our daily lives.

Your retort?

Honestly, rational thought and chance are the only things to truly believe...too many "leaps of faith" when it comes to Christianity...too many variations of the same religion for all of them with the exception of Buddhism and Hinduism...they're the only 2 around that only have 1 path to follow those religions with. Scientology I guess has only one way to follow it but that "religion" is straight INSANE...I swear whoever thought of that was on LSD or something...

A rational christian argument?>



Do they not realize that taking a situation and creating it to be one sided... makes it one sided?

This guy really believes he "proved" something by using the same exact thing... faith.

Doesn't prove that he exists imo, all I got from it was.

A: You don't know 100% if he does or doesn't exist(him saying that he may exist in the knowledge I don't have)
B: "You got 2 choices, choice 1: You live, then die, choice 2: You live with a 'purpose' following a supreme being that I just said might exist in the knowledge you don't have, but that also means that he might not exist in the knowledge you don't have."(quotes are how I understood what he said)

Well I am not a god goer. Buuuuuuuttttt, in my opinion..life's purpose is what you make it. You ensure your own happiness or your own demise. In my opinion..I have experienced Black Magic and White Magic..but..we have lost sight of what is beyond our realm. Just as with our sub-consious, we alone have the ability to control what our dreams are. If we go deep enough. But..the whole god/Jesus thing. I am not convinced nor will I ever be.

I was watching some documentaries the past few weeks and came across something that I think everyone knows or has heard.... but it seems no one really challenges.

The order of creation according to the bible:

Day one:

Light.
The watery "earth" form.
Separating the darkness and light. (Day and night)

Day 2:

The divide between the water and the sky. Arguably the creation of the atmosphere.

Day 3:

Land
All vegetation

Day 4:

Planets
Moon
Stars

........Sun.



Wait, what? Some how there was "Light" created first, they that was divided on earth as day and night. Then vegetation was created..... then the sun?

I know people will use the "well god can do anything" bit, and that's hard to argue a vague blanket statement.... but does that make any sense to anyone realistically? To have "light" you need a source. You separate day from night in a sphere, you need a source that either rotates or a subject that rotates. Which would have to mean that light originally was all over, then somehow... he made it a source. And to have plants, you need the sun. But the sun came later.

I know this isn't proof of the existence or lack of existence of a god.... but doesn't it show that the book of genesis was, at best, poorly written?


EDIT: Wanted to add this as well. It's a cartoon and on a relatively comedic level.... but does use actual words from the bible (when it does, they are written at teh bottom). I was surprised about numbers 6 & 7..... but mostly 7. All those years in church and private school, it was never spoke of (7). And what was, was diluted so much and so much left out. Although I had read the bible cover to cover a few times when I was young, I wasn't old enough to actually understand what went on.

I'm sorry to once again pick on a face book post that I just don't understand... But as I mentioned, most of my friends I knew growing up in church and private school.

Somewone I know has a son born with quite a few medical problems. First off, personally that would make me question my faith, but thats just me. The medical bills are piling up and they need help. I sincerly and truely feel bad for their situation. I would asume a just and loving "god" wouldn't let them or the innocent child go through all this.... but I guess he has a "plan"? Garbage.

Here's her post..

"Some wonderful friends of ours have planned a fundraiser to help offset some of the medical expenses for our son Tristan's medical expenses. He had sugery in October and is looking at another 23 surgeries over the next 12 years. Please check your calendars and if you are able, we'd love to see you there. The event includes a concert, pasta dinner and some amazing silent auction items. You can RSVP at the Facebook"

To me, that seems somethiong "man" is putting together to help this family in their time of need. Where's "god" at exactly?

Her next post (not a reply to anyone, just a post) is what made me really confused....

"Isn't it amazing how God meets our needs?!"

Huh? If he was meeting their needs..... why would they need a fundraiser to raise money to help them and their son? What kind of "god" would take someone that is a follower of his, that praises him, preaches about him, and loves him and just let natural things happen? Why even need a doctor or surgeries? Why make the child born sick to begin with?

If all the innocent children in the world could be born normal, I would find a way to believe in a god..... but if there is a god....


What an asshole he is.

I love you Tad, lol.

I thought this was well written.