God or not.

First topic message reminder :

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?

Shadow, I believe you are missing quite a bit mainly in your example.

First off having a belief in God does not mean you are some bible thumping holy roller who has dedicated their lives to live soley for God, and nothing else. Having a belief in God has an extreme amount of levels. Hell, just a belief in something dosent indicate what your morals and daily practices are.

But... staying on your "type" of people.... your example would be 100% incorrect. Growing up in church and seeing these types of situations often, those people who believe that storngly would rather be taken to heaven then be alive. They believe that their deaths are in the hands of God. So argumentatively, that example holds no weight.

Well, you just kinda made my point.

Growing up in church and seeing these types of situations often, those people who believe that storngly would rather be taken to heaven then be alive.

That's ridiculous in my eyes.

I did grow up in a religious setting in a religious family, when I was 10 I spoke out against it all and that's why I'm the "black sheep" of my family.

Your over-complicating the matter. Don't follow religion blindly study the facts figure out what religion is right for you and follow it all the way. Personally I've studied almost every religion around as well as every "divinely inspired book" and I've come up with a sort of equation [ If a book = inspired by a perfect being. Then the book = perfect. ] It's kind of common sense if you believe God wrote the bible then the bible must be flawless. It can't be self conflicting because a religion that self conflicts cannot be perfect therefore cannot stand. So far I've eliminated my search down to one single religion. Good luck finding yours.

Shadow wrote:No that's not what I'm saying at all...

I'm saying, that if the "Power of God" in their lives, is the sole cause for why they want to live, is insanity. If they cannot live for themselves or their family, but can live because of the belief in a figment of their imagination. That, in my eyes, is insanity.

Ex:
John is in a car wreck, he hates his family, hates his life, and hates himself... But loves "God". John chooses to fight for his life because of his love for "God". Not for himself, not for his family, but for a figment of his imagination. He could save himself regardless of "God", "God" is just the catalyst that motivates himself to keep living. I think that is insanity because of the fact that life is a gift and for someone to ONLY have the belief in "God" for motivation, is crazy.

That's why I hate religion. The bible preaches balance not fanaticism. It's men that corrupt religion. Don't blame God for something man has done.

Hmm I believe there is a God seeing that i was raised in a Southern baptist family

the real question i wanna ask you is WHat are you losing by not putting faith in God? I mean if your wrong and youa ll go to hell would you have wanted to believe anyways just so your soul wouldnt suffer?

Thats all ima be pushing i dont like to push my religon on others

L1fe wrote:Your over-complicating the matter. Don't follow religion blindly study the facts figure out what religion is right for you and follow it all the way. Personally I've studied almost every religion around as well as every "divinely inspired book" and I've come up with a sort of equation [ If a book = inspired by a perfect being. Then the book = perfect. ] It's kind of common sense if you believe God wrote the bible then the bible must be flawless. It can't be self conflicting because a religion that self conflicts cannot be perfect therefore cannot stand. So far I've eliminated my search down to one single religion. Good luck finding yours.

In hand though God didnt write the the bible Gods people did =P

Legacy wrote:

the real question i wanna ask you is WHat are you losing by not putting faith in God? I mean if your wrong and youa ll go to hell would you have wanted to believe anyways just so your soul wouldnt suffer?

Thats my point. Pascals Wager. You can't win with out playing the game. And if you followed the biblical beliefs and moral structures and there is no heaven..... all you did was live a good, moral life.

Whats to lose?

I believe there is a god...just that we haven't seen him/her/it yet.

T@D wrote:

Legacy wrote:

the real question i wanna ask you is WHat are you losing by not putting faith in God? I mean if your wrong and youa ll go to hell would you have wanted to believe anyways just so your soul wouldnt suffer?

Thats my point. Pascals Wager. You can't win with out playing the game. And if you followed the biblical beliefs and moral structures and there is no heaven..... all you did was live a good, moral life.

Whats to lose?

like the saying goes "better safe than sorry"

T@D wrote:

Legacy wrote:

the real question i wanna ask you is WHat are you losing by not putting faith in God? I mean if your wrong and youa ll go to hell would you have wanted to believe anyways just so your soul wouldnt suffer?

Thats my point. Pascals Wager. You can't win with out playing the game. And if you followed the biblical beliefs and moral structures and there is no heaven..... all you did was live a good, moral life.

Whats to lose?

The thing is, it's not because we don't want to believe it, but because we can't. I honestly can't believe in someone who sits up in the sky watching over 7 billion people every single day (except Sunday I guess) and is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-being. I mean, seriously...to me that's just a bunch of nonsense invented by someone. Actually, it's more like an imaginary friend that a child would make up to keep them company. Maybe that's what God is, just part of your imagination. To you it might be real, to me it's not. If I could believe in the idea of a God, I would probably "play the game". But it's just the missteps in logic and reason between faith and reality that put me in a position unable to believe.

If you believe in God for selfish reasons, and it turns out he does exist, wouldn't he know that you're being a fake believer? Isn't that the theory behind an all-powerful, all-knowing god? So why fool yourself?

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:If you believe in God for selfish reasons, and it turns out he does exist, wouldn't he know that you're being a fake believer? Isn't that the theory behind an all-powerful, all-knowing god? So why fool yourself?

how would he know if he never existed?

He doesn't, that's the point.

You're saying people should believe just in case he DOES exist. If he DOES exist, he would be able to tell the difference between the ones that really followed "his will" and the fake believers who just believed to be "better safe than sorry", right? Because that's the depiction of god, an all-knowing one.

So if you don't believe, don't. Believing to be "better safe than sorry" is no more than a redundancy that is not relevant to this discussion.

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:He doesn't, that's the point.

You're saying people should believe just in case he DOES exist. If he DOES exist, he would be able to tell the difference between the ones that really followed "his will" and the fake believers who just believed to be "better safe than sorry", right? Because that's the depiction of god, an all-knowing one.

So if you don't believe, don't. Believing to be "better safe than sorry" is no more than a redundancy that is not relevant to this discussion.

i really dotn want to break out my bible and start pulling out verses for you lol

This is not about christianity specifically. However, go ahead, pull out some verses that say that those who pretend to follow "the word of god" for their personal benefit are granted into heaven or whatever.

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:This is not about christianity specifically. However, go ahead, pull out some verses that say that those who pretend to follow "the word of god" for their personal benefit are granted into heaven or whatever.

If you accept christ and your of christian belief the only way for you not to go to hell is to deny god that is one of the unforgivable sins

Okay lets go into the whole "Evolution" theory. People say that man evolved from earth correct? Well if this is true then how come we have to donate blood? Why couldn't we just find blood on Earth?

Here is another one:
You see this painting
https://2img.net/h/i89.photobucket.com/albums/k238/darrenandmaria/PaintingsReed059.jpg

How do you know there was a painter?

You see this building?
http://apartmentaccess.net/south/sample/images/aptImages/building.jpg

How do you know there was a builder?

You see this earth?
http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/design/images/earth.jpg

How do you know there is not a creator?


What about the people that have past away for a few mins then come back to life and claim they were near heaven?

What about tongues?
Some might not know what that is but it is like a spiritual language.
People speak in tongues and where do they get the ability to speak it? You can't just randomly make up a language and make it sound legit. My mom speaks in tongues and holy shit I am puzzled to how the hell she does it. It is insane.


I don't know I am a strong believer that there is a God and that Jesus was God in the flesh. It even says in the bible about the end of the Earth and guess what.. it is all coming true. This was written thousands of years ago.

In my opinion it makes to much sense.

Legacy wrote:

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:This is not about christianity specifically. However, go ahead, pull out some verses that say that those who pretend to follow "the word of god" for their personal benefit are granted into heaven or whatever.

If you accept christ and your of christian belief the only way for you not to go to hell is to deny god that is one of the unforgivable sins

How is "meh, I'll just go with it even though I think it's absolute bullshit" the same as "accepting christ and being of christian faith"?

virtuosity wrote:Post...

a) That is not the evolution theory. You're referring to the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis, which is a proven, through experimentation, hypothesis that life can come to be from the the basic elements C,H,O,N,P, and S , water, and energy (eletricity). In the primitive Earth, all these elements were present in the atmosphere, and the lightning that prevailed provided the energy.

If you google the Urey-miller experiment, you'll see that scientists are able to create some of the basic elements of life, such as amino-acids (the building blocks of proteins, and thus, life), fatty acids in the lab using nothing but the conditions of primitive Earth.

With a little bit of luck, and whole bunch of time (we're talking millions of years) this could develop into membranes, ARN, DNA, and later on, cells. This is the most accepted theory about how life began on earth.

So yes, in reality, you, in a way, could find blood on Earth.

b) If you were to put that painting, or that building, in the middle of the jungle were an amazonian tribe without contact whatsoever with the contemporary world (I assure, they do exist), their logical explanation would be that it is somekind magic that created it ("god", tezcatlipoca, or whatever they want to call it)... and they would be wrong. See, we can only know things we have a frame of reference of. You know that painting was made by a painter because you have a background knowledge that ALL painting are made by painters. That background knowledge does not exist with Earth, who is to say that you, like the amazonians, are not wrong? You certainly could be wrong, and there's always the possibility that you could be right, but it is outright ignorant to claim the 'magic' one as being THE truth.

c) What about them? What about those who had the same thing happen and claimed not to see heaven or god? This relates more to the physical aspect of being death. Their bodies could be dead, but their brains could still have enough oxygen to imagine stuff. I'd rather not go into this.

d) I do not understand what you mean with tongues? Do you mean a random language that sounds like it is real. That is no proof at all that there is a god.

I dunno T@d the whole pascals wager doesn't sound like it would work I mean if you believe God exists and that he is omnipotent and created all life on earth then knowing the truth of your actions is a piece of cake. Maybe I'm not sure the idea just sits uncomfortably with me because I'm the sort of person that when I commit it has to be full and I have to give it my all.

It's alot easier for me to reply in the quote so I can cover every point. I hope you understand and am not breaking any "rules"..... Hitler.

Lazarus McDeathsinger wrote:
a) That is not the evolution theory. You're referring to the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis, which is a proven, through experimentation, hypothesis that life can come to be from the the basic elements C,H,O,N,P, and S , water, and energy (eletricity). In the primitive Earth, all these elements were present in the atmosphere, and the lightning that prevailed provided the energy. Maybe God made those?

If you google the Urey-miller experiment, you'll see that scientists are able to create some of the basic elements of life, such as amino-acids (the building blocks of proteins, and thus, life), fatty acids in the lab using nothing but the conditions of primitive Earth. Maybe God made those?

With a little bit of luck, and whole bunch of time (we're talking millions of years) this could develop into membranes, ARN, DNA, and later on, cells. This is the most accepted theory about how life began on earth. Maybe God made those too?

So yes, in reality, you, in a way, could find blood on Earth. Maybe God madethat as well?

b) If you were to put that painting, or that building, in the middle of the jungle were an amazonian tribe without contact whatsoever with the contemporary world (I assure, they do exist), their logical explanation would be that it is somekind magic that created it ("god", tezcatlipoca, or whatever they want to call it)... and they would be wrong. See, we can only know things we have a frame of reference of. You know that painting was made by a painter because you have a background knowledge that ALL painting are made by painters. That background knowledge does not exist with Earth, who is to say that you, like the amazonians, are not wrong? You certainly could be wrong, and there's always the possibility that you could be right, but it is outright ignorant to claim the 'magic' one as being THE truth. You cant compare a painting to the earths creation. I can confidently say those "tribe" you speak of, believe their sourudings were made by a "higher power".

c) What about them? What about those who had the same thing happen and claimed not to see heaven or god? This relates more to the physical aspect of being death. Their bodies could be dead, but their brains could still have enough oxygen to imagine stuff. I'd rather not go into this. What about the ones who have. You can debate alot of situations that people haven't experienced the same things as others. Does that discount the things that some saw.... because others didnt see it?

d) I do not understand what you mean with tongues? Do you mean a random language that sounds like it is real. If you don't understand tongues, look it up in the bible. Basically.... its the 'holy ghosts way of speaking in a language that is not discernible by anyone but God... through you.That is no proof at all that there is a god.

a) Hey, so we've reached that point of the discussion where I reply "then, who made god?" and you reply "he was just there", and I'm not allowed to reply "why can't I say the matter that makes those elements was just there", because that would make me look stupid. You see, when you say god can exist without being created, and I'm not allowed to say the same thing about matter because I would look stupid, even though you have as much proof as I have, we've reached the point of the conversation where it cannot go any further.

b) So you can compare the painting to the earth's creation to prove that god exists (virtuosity), but you can't when it's the other way around?

c) In science, the most objective way to obtain knowledge human kind knows, the only way to prove something to be correct is if it happens everytime. This is not an observable phenomena that could be measured, and thus, at least in science, holds no weight.

d) Glossolalia are nothing but part of the religion(s), they are not considered to be a scientific, physical phenomenon.

So in c and d what I'm saying is that you can't prove god exists using other things that you can't prove exist either. It's like saying Garminipooboombas exists because if it doesn't, then how do you explain chichikimoongas and rambinsefotisbabo?

"I don't believe there's a god, but i do believe there's something there"

i think that's how she said it! haha
it was from a movie
and i uhh shittt i lost my train of thought..

Im gonna finally post my thought here.

Due to the recent happenings in Haiti... how can anyone believe in a loving, compassionate, far, and just "God".   You can go the route of Pat Robertson, a largely respected religious leader, and state that Haiti had a "pact with the devil... many years ago"... but come on.  Are you serious?  Can you possibility explain the destruction, death, miss appropriated funds, and over all loss of those who were alive the 1st earthquake and/or the second one....to a situation that their government made?  What about the ones who died?  Where was their "God".

Theres two problematic "theories" when it involves this type of thing.  Pascals wager and Occam's Razor.  Pascal theorized that it was better to believe there is a God and be wrong, then to believe there is no God and be wrong.   Simple "you cant win if you dont play" type of thing.  Occam stated, which was stated even as early as Aristotle.... The simplest answer us usually correct.  It's easier to explain the scientific facts of even evolution (which I shy away from) then it is creationism.   Creationism has to be one of the most far fetched ideals I have ever read.

"And God said/created....".  Thats creationism in a nutshell.   "God" created everything.  No one else, no evolution, no adaptations... just him.  He made what we have today.   What you see, according to biblical terms, is how it was done.  Yet theres proof of the large differences between the humans today and the humans we can trace back to.... but we were created in his own image?   Huh?!

Jesus, although historically a great person, was the son of God?  This is where I lose my "faith"... considering the belief in god or even A god is strictly based on that only.... faith....  But lets say there was a Jesus.  He was the son of God.  Performed miracles, brought back the dead, healed the blind, and even turned water into wine.....and his pops... God, cares about the world, loves them, is fair and just....  Why would Jesus not take the steps to "Prove" who he was and perform miracles when asked?  When he was beaten, dragged around the city, treated like a criminal.... why not make it rain.  Why not make the sand blue... something, anything to prove who he was, and that god was there.  The worst that could happen is everyone believed, he won... and the devil lost.  What "fair, loving, just God" wouldn't want that?  Isn't that what the bible is really?  A great story but basically a manual on how to get to heaven?  "Do this, and u will meet me... do that and all will be yours".   Now I have heard the line before "But God wont be challenged.."  Huh?  Are you going to say that his ego is too big to prove to someone that he loves and cares for that he actually exists?  If he "created" us and heaven... he had to create hell right?  Or atleast let it happen.  He is "God" he can do anything.  So this "God, is "letting" the "devil" run the earth.....?  Why?  That doesn't seem loving to me.  

People do the same thing every day that are "believers".   If they get what they "pray" for... it was Gods will and they praise him.   If they don't... It was Gods will and they understand/look for something else.

It's all garbage to me.  I was brought up in church all of my life till I was 20-ish.  I "believed" back when.... but now that I have my own brain back from the church... it makes no sense.

To clarify... My previous posts were used for debating.... to play "devils advocate". The last post is my true feelings.

I could not have said it any better myself Tad. I look at all the assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers around the world and realize that God is not the one who fucks everything up or makes people good or bad, it's our own race! If God really created us in his own image, then why is everybody so different? Someone would argue, "it's because God is anything and everything." That, to me, is a load of cow manure.

I don't believe anything Christianity, or any religion really, has to say about a divine being. The bible was written in a time where people believed the world was flat and that monsters would get you if you traveled off the edge. I mean, seriously? Those are the kind of philosophers and believers that wrote this fiction nonsense. Also, everything that was ever published during that time had to pass through the Emperor's hands, and only the Emperor himself could make changes and edit any text he desired for his own benefit. So, isn't it possible that maybe he edited the bible to his liking to give his people hope and faith when their beloved empire was falling apart? Gasp!

There are so many stories throughout religion that just discredit their own beliefs and morals, I choose to ignore them. What is the worst part of it all though is that arguing against someone who truly believes in this crap will never stop believing. They could have their family slaughtered in front of them, their dog being eaten, their home lit on fire, their money being stolen, and they could become a dirty hobo for 5 years, and they would still think it's all just a test from God.

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!" -- George Carlin, R.I.P.

tool wrote:I could not have said it any better myself Tad. I look at all the assholes, douchebags, dumbasses, and cockgobblers around the world and realize that God is not the one who fucks everything up or makes people good or bad, it's our own race!

I know Im not suppose to quote the post above me... but I have to.

Tool... In no way was I calling anyone that believes in God, names. I don't think they are any less intelligent then I am, you are, or anyone. I just don't believe in their "faith". People that believe in God are perfectly fine. They believe 1 thing, I believe another. I am looking forward to debating this wiht anyone who believes... but I cant say anyone who does is "wrong".