Area 51

First topic message reminder :

So area 51..
Responsible for hundreds of UFO sightings, mysterious lights that travel at extreme speeds.
Area 51 is keeping alien technology inside of the base and denied that it ever exists.
I belive that there are actully extraterrestrial beings within the base.


Here is a website created by a former worker of area 51, Bob Lazar.
http://www.boblazar.com/closed/index.html
takes about 15-30 mins to read the site.

I still believe that aliens were considered angels back then. I mean do you really believe that men with wings flew from another world ?

Anything unexplained, one way or another, traces back to religion. Even you asked about the biblical sense of this topic. It's impossible to talk about a mystical creation with out talking about a "God". For all facts and matter, if there was a "god"... he would be the one who made these other interplanetary creatures... correct? So for there to be an alien race... God would have had to make it.... hence introducing religion into alien talk...

I think we're sort of getting off topic here. This is about whether or not Area 51 is keeping aliens or alien technology hidden inside the base.

But first..

@Virt: We actually are living longer. If you research the average life expectancy of people in, oh, let's say, 100 A.D., it would probably be around 25 to 32. If you remember from U.S. History, we found out that colonists lived to be anywhere from 40-55 (except Ben Franklin...old fart). Now we are in a time where the average lifespan is roughly 70 to 80. Slowly, through generations, humans are becoming more and more evolved to live longer, healthier lives. Of course many factors such as junk food, smoking, drinking, and drugs, affect this.

virtuosity wrote:

I have a few questions for the people that believe in evolution...
#1: If some how evolution was real and we morphed into humans then where in the line of evolution did blood get made? I mean if we did come from this Earth then how come we have to donate blood and not find it on the Earth?
#2: Why aren't animals and such still morphing?
#3: If evolution did occur how come humans aren't morphing into something new and better or different?

Also let me ask you this how did other species or aliens whatever you want to call them become that way? Did they go through evolution to? Are they made up of blood? Are their bodies built the same as humans? Do they have organs?

1) Why on earth does Earth would Earth have blood? I am assuming you are talking about the piece of rock that we live on...Why would it have blood? But lots of species have blood...

2) Animals are still evolving... evolution takes very short amount of time since the whole idea is that a "mistake" or "change" in their DNA code will give them a slight advantage.... This + lots and lots of years = evolution. A good example of this is bacterias, they multiply fast (once every 20 min or so) (DNA gets copied many times). Like 80 years ago, when penicillin first came out, it killed alot of diseases (that were caused by bacteria). But now some diseases are back, and resistant to many advanced medicines that humans have. This is because small changes to their gene can make them resistant, and when everybody else is dead, the new mutated thing becomes the dominant ones. Thus forcing us to make a new medicine.

I want to make a note that the bacteria or any other organism is not doing this consciously... They had random gene mutation, They had an advantage (most didn't but the few that did), they survived, they reproduced.
This is evolution. Not god.... =/

3) stop using the word morph.... you make it sound like this happened in a matter of days! It didn't! But here is a few things we know as human evolution. For example, our tailbone. A very old remnant of our old lineage... (in fact if you look at human fetuses, they look remarkably similar to other species')
Another one, our pink toes. We used to use them to climb and stuff but since civilization they are decreasing... soon be gone....
Another one, skin colour.... dark skin = more protection from the sun. (unless one uses the arguement that god simply created them differently and put them there..)

There are HUGE number of places where u see this type of stuff in nature... the evidences that darwin found... ! read them sometimes!

Attn: T@D

READ THIS DAMMIT

TheRustySpoon wrote:
2) Animals are still evolving... evolution takes very short amount of time since the whole idea is that a "mistake" or "change" in their DNA code will give them a slight advantage.... This + lots and lots of years = evolution. A good example of this is bacterias, they multiply fast (once every 20 min or so) (DNA gets copied many times). Like 80 years ago, when penicillin first came out, it killed alot of diseases (that were caused by bacteria). But now some diseases are back, and resistant to many advanced medicines that humans have. This is because small changes to their gene can make them resistant, and when everybody else is dead, the new mutated thing becomes the dominant ones. Thus forcing us to make a new medicine.

I want to make a note that the bacteria or any other organism is not doing this consciously... They had random gene mutation, They had an advantage (most didn't but the few that did), they survived, they reproduced.
This is evolution. Not god.... =/

T@D wrote:Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication.

Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat. This process takes place over many generations, and is one of the basic phenomena of biology.

They are completely two different things. Completely.

Adaption is the result of natural selection (Killing off the weak, and the strong survives)... A species that is faced with an threat to survival will not try to adapt.

It just happens. The strong one had a genetic advantage, whether through mutation (its more common than you think, actually its scary how often the human genome screw up during multiplying and it sometimes have a very large impact ) or plain by chance (their parents genes mixed to produce a very very nice result (note this is not adaption), there can be mutations here too, (see genetic disease(ie, people with one extra chromosome))). Either way the resulting organism has a distinct genetic advantage to that of his species, and this drives them to doom and him to sucess.

Lets look at that sickle cell disease. If i remember correctly, ONE BASE of the GCAT DNA sequence was wrong in the which coded for the protein (i think hemoglobin) which made the blood cell from a nice disk shape into a this sickle thing. Now people normally die from this. But in some parts of africa it is good to have half of this disease (co-dominance or something.... ) basically your blood cell is sorta fucked. But the point is these people have an advantage, because the disease malaria has one stage where it needs to use the blood cell, and the sickle celled people and the half sickle celled people is immune to this since their shape does not allow the that stage to occur.
Normally this sickle cell disease would be eliminated since the people who have it are at an disadvantage to the rest. But since they makes them immune to malaria, the person with Sickle/sickle and normal/normal is more likely to die than people with the sickle/normal gene.

DNA is the driving force of natural selection whether by mutation or plain genetic exchanges. Adaption is just the result of this, how a species seemingly "conquer" the new threat. Natural selection is basically the process where those who are "adapted" is advantageous to pass on their genetic information to the next generation. The theory of evolution basically sums everything up

I can agree with part of that. Adaptation is a "part" of natural selection. Mutation has nothing to do with adaptation nor natural selection. A mutation is an unforeseen change in DNA that is NOT connected to the situation of the being. Adaptation, like evolution is a change to a being... over time... which may make changes due to their situations.

Mutation and adaptation is not anywhere near the same thing... at all.

A mutation can happen at any time with no warning or meaning... an adaptation is a slow change to adapt to a difference in your surrounding.

I do not believe that DNA is the driving force to natural selection though... by any means. You can't tell me that the changes or even mutations to DNA of any species is directly connected to their demise. There is no proof, anywhere... what so ever to show that. Science and even some bum on the street can show that some species become extinct due to many reasons..... alot being man..... Us. We did it, more often then not.

Thats fine if you want to think that way.... but thats being as self indulgent as I was saying earlier about our general beliefs if aliens exist....

Hundreds of species go extinct monthly..... we didn't cause them all.. .but we have had out hands in alot of it. Blame the whales, pandas, and white tigers for their demise due to DNA? No.

OH YEH ALIENS!
>_> I dont think there are aliens in area51. Here is a logical flow chart (well not a chart) ...

To have aliens there we need to assume that the aliens crashed into the Earth.

Since the closests stars are... 4 or 5 lightyears away, we have to assume they are either:
1) Developed close to light travel with or without the aid of cryogenics
2) Developed faster than light travel.

Either way to travel here, one would need a ship or some sort of device that will contain them.
By travelling that far, I will assume the ship is made of materials that humans have not developed runing on a technology that human has not developed
the result is:
- Big/Technologically advanced ship

Now they are outside and maybe they want to search for life. But the first broadcast into space was hitlers' speech in 1935 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080805103405AABLmPr
Roswell was 1947. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_Incident

Now if they were in alpha centuri 4.37 lightyears(the closest star system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri), they would have need to travel at 0.35 the speed of light! (UNBELIEVABLY FAST)

So, the aliens could have either
1) heard us and thus used a very fast ship (require a huge system for propulsion))
2) have been searching randomly...for aVERY VERY LONG TIME NOW)
Both cases needs something HUGE! propulsion, food/nutrience, support systems....

OK! So wat do we have, if they crashed on earth, they would have had a HUGE ship with extreme amounts of technology that some how screwed up? A crash of that size would have left distinct signatures/anomalies that should be testable. More so to store the alien technology on a base, but some how no nations has been sucessful at getting a spy into there?

Conclusion: USA is not holding aliens hostage! Neither is any other nations!

Other stuff:
Aliens must exist, now whether we'll ever find them? If we dont kill our selves then yes!

T@D wrote:
A mutation can happen at any time with no warning or meaning... an adaptation is a slow change to adapt to a difference in your surrounding.

Thats the problem. Are you telling me that the species are willingly changing to adapt? Throughout the natural word, like the finches on the galapagos islands, they changed physically to suit the environment. They adapted. But they didn't go "oh i think it would be beneficial for me to have a longer beak for _____ since it'll make finding food faster". It happened, and its in their genetics. They didn't want to to happen, the ones with disadvantages simply got out advantaged.

T@D wrote:
I do not believe that DNA is the driving force to natural selection though... by any means. You can't tell me that the changes or even mutations to DNA of any species is directly connected to their demise. There is no proof, anywhere... what so ever to show that. Science and even some bum on the street can show that some species become extinct due to many reasons..... alot being man..... Us. We did it, more often then not.

There is proof. Bacteria demise in the previous example. Now, yes we did create problems, one is during the industrial revolution in britain there were moths. The tree there is white bark or something. Anyways. Before, the population was primary white ish months. DUring the revolutio, enormous amounds of soot and other stuff effectively made the trees darker. And as a result the population was then tested and found it was primarily darkish moths.

Looking headon, one would assume that the moths just changed because well they wanted to adapt and they adapted. But thats not the case. Birds spoted the dark ones when the tree was white. Similarly the birds spoted the white ones when the bark was dark. The dark ones then dominated the population as they can pass on their DNA (coding for darkness) and the white ones could not. .

T@D wrote:
Thats fine if you want to think that way.... but thats being as self indulgent as I was saying earlier about our general beliefs if aliens exist....
Hundreds of species go extinct monthly..... we didn't cause them all.. .but we have had out hands in alot of it. Blame the whales, pandas, and white tigers for their demise due to DNA? No.

Every problem whether manmade or not is just another obstacle. Whether the species can overcome it completely different. Think abuot why humans are at the top? We have our knowledge. Sure we suck at pretty much every other thing, but due to our thinking skills, we ARE the dominant race, and we ARE outcompleting those animals.

There is no need to blame them for their DNA. Its just the matter of life that we are superior, and if we want to kill them they really cannot do anhything about it (being what they are at the moment). This applies to every predator - prey relationship in this world. DNA makes what we are.

I hate to disagree with spooner... cause I find you to be one of the most intelligent people that even log into this site.... No offense everyone else... hes Asian.


But, you are looking at things, as I said before, with tunnel vision. Can a craft travel 4.37 light years in a matter of minutes?.... to our species intelligence... no... they can not. It's an impossible feat, no one can do it.

Why? Why are we so "in control" of science and technology to be able to even argue the fact that yes... we have no clue of space travel.... no clue whats actually possible. We are strictly a theory based species.

I find it hard to believe a species with such a high technical level can have such a huge screw up. Granted we do not know alot about spacetravel, but there is convention propulsion using various stuff, but all basically comes to newton's 3rd law of action/reaction. But something outside the conventional propulsion, something that can truely make a species an intergalactic species... I think the chances of screwing up on arriving to earth is fairly slim.

Whats more slim is how they have not escaped or how other governments have not found out about them.

I dont know, its possible but its so unlikely that i treat it in my mind as an impossible.

Tool: You are comparison is pointless, why did they have such a short life span? Because of diseases and sicknesses. Only reason why we are living longer is because we have the medicine to cure it.

Spoon: I am not saying that evolution is not possible what I don't believe is that we cam from a single celled organism. We didn't get made from the ground.

Also I would like to point out I talked to my mom about the whole bible thing and she told me that it says nothing in the bible about another life form, she told me that it said their was one before us which she isn't sure what it is referring too but she said I could have been dinosaurs. Also I know for a fact she knows what she is talking about with the bible because she read it like a gazillion times :o Yes that many lol

Anyways this is quite an interesting topic

TheRustySpoon wrote:I find it hard to believe a species with such a high technical level can have such a huge screw up. Granted we do not know alot about spacetravel, but there is convention propulsion using various stuff, but all basically comes to newton's 3rd law of action/reaction. But something outside the conventional propulsion, something that can truely make a species an intergalactic species... I think the chances of screwing up on arriving to earth is fairly slim.

Whats more slim is how they have not escaped or how other governments have not found out about them.

I don't know, its possible but its so unlikely that i treat it in my mind as an impossible.

That is exactly my point that I think Im not expressing properly...... Who's law? A humans? We can not comprehend even the factor of infinity or even understand the true meaning of time/space. If we did.. the abilities would be endless. Who are we to think that another species or even millions of planets culminate species that can understand and comprehend what we don't.


We are using telescopes, probes, and satellites to look for... in search of "intelligent life" in space....


We aren't intelligent life to them if they can get here. And if they can.. why bother with an ignorant and primitive species anyway. We have nothing to offer the world we have. We have proven to be an irresponsible group with what we are given. We prefer to destruct then create. Thats our human nature.....we sure cant offer anything to a species thats "intelligent".

Tad: I couldn't agree more with your last post..

By the way I like how everyone is so quick to point the finger at me for quoting when Scorp was doing it. Also shadow had quoted, tad and idk who else lol but stop pointing the finger at one person!

1) Speaking of medicine, I believe (this is only my opinion and i am not sure if its plausible) that evolution for humans have effectively ended due to technology most of the time we do not need changes. I think with the development of gene therapy, the natural evolution of people will be outpaced. We can mold ourselves into what we want! (;o wow so philosophical!)

2) Nothing in the lab can point to the creation of the "cell". Although they managed to make simple amino acids under young earth's circumstances. But that is far from a cell or even an organelle. But from that single cell on wards. Biology explains pretty well what happens, cells makes more cells, they form groups of cells, groups into specialize different cells with differnt functions all for a single organism... that organism gets better and better..... goes on and on...
Here is an eye O_O



For curiosity tad! But i guess we cant really know what they`re thinking !

Lol sry virt! I think your post was like a milestone in this thread, and that steered us into talkign about evolution and stuff ! I was trying to reply to the all the mainpoints hehe

omfg 3 hours here >_> i got important materialsssssss test fakkkkk i go cram now!

virtuosity wrote:Tad: I couldn't agree more with your last post..

By the way I like how everyone is so quick to point the finger at me for quoting when Scorp was doing it. Also shadow had quoted, tad and idk who else lol but stop pointing the finger at one person!

That was two pages ago.... get over it an disagree with me damn it!

I most definitely agree with your point 1 because already right now we are able to alter genetics of a baby to make it a boy or girl which in my opinion is wrong to do.

I red the "mutation" and "evolution" thing, and I couldn't help but laughing.

Everydays, they are millions of DNA mutations happening. Viruses are mutating. Fishes are mutating. WE are mutating. Some mutations lead to diseases, like cancers. Some mutations go unnoticed. However you call it, even a mutation turning out to cause cancer is some sort of evolution. Of course, that's not one great mutation that will give the mutated the ability to breathe underwater. It'll cause his death. Now, think of millions of mutations everydays. One of those mutation cause the human air need into DIOXYDE need, and not oxygen need. Nowadays, people breathing air for dioxyde (CH20 if my memory's still right) won't last a single minute alive. But, imagine a world full of dioxyde. People breathing oxygen won't last very long while people breathing dioxyde will be full healthy.

We are NOT adaptating to the world, neither the world is adaptating to us. There are millions of DNA mutation everydays, most of them goes unnoticed, again, most of those that go noticed are deadly to their wearers. Only a few of them cause changes we can live with. Some of those changes aren't adaptated to the world we live on, and people having them aren't adaptated anymore, so they die. Some others are fully adaptated. That's what we call "evolution". We shouldn't. Any mutation is an evolution. Take a jar, break it. from the time it wasn't broken to the time you've broken it, it has evoluated. But look, now it's broken. Now, take some clay (argil ?), give it the shape of a jar, work it. Then you got a jar. yay. Your clay has evoluated into a jar. God. Let's call it an evolution. You see that, evolution is not good of bad. Evolution is a changement. We're changing everydays. But the whole human specie is NOT. Like tool(?) said, it takes millions of years for a specie to evoluate.

Think of it like that : Someone get a new supagud gene that makes him resistant to a deadly new virus killing everyone. He will be almost the only one to survive. The human beeing is saved because we built underground cities. Here's another problem, there is no light. People in need of lights will probably die. ANd there you are again, having a humanity filled by people that has no need of light. Now, we're getting back to the virus thing. The virus resistant guy has a wife. He fucks a lot. Get some childs. raise them into full grown adults. They do the same. Etc. 20 000 years later, the virus evoluate again, and gain the ability to go underground. Who do you think will survive the new epidemy ? Everyone that was descendant of the virus resistant guy. They will have the ability to live without light, and they'll survive the virus. Here you got a new human "specie".



I'm sure I haven't made myself clear + my post will go unnoticed, but here's what I think is the truth.

I found this interesting....
"LONDON – For the past 50 years, scientists have scoured the skies for radio signals from beyond our planet, hoping for some sign of extraterrestrial life. But one physicist says there's no reason alien life couldn't already be lurking among us — or maybe even in us.

Paul Davies, an award-winning Arizona State University physicist known for his popular science writing said Tuesday that life may have developed on Earth not once but several times.

Davies said the variant life forms — most likely tiny microbes — could still be hanging around "right under our noses — or even in our noses."

"How do we know all life on Earth descended from a single origin?" he told a conference at London's prestigious Royal Society, which serves as Britain's academy of sciences. "We've just scratched the surface of the microbial world."

The idea that alien micro-organisms could be hiding out here on Earth has been discussed for a while, according to Jill Tarter, the director of the U.S. SETI project, which listens for signals from civilizations based around distant stars.

She said several of the scientists involved in the project were interested in pursuing the notion, which Davies earlier laid out in a 2007 article published in Scientific American in which he asked: "Are aliens among us?"

So far, there's no answer. And ever finding one would be fraught with difficulties, as Davies himself acknowledged.

Unusual organisms abound — including chemical-eating bacteria which hide out deep in the ocean and organisms that thrive in boiling-hot springs — but that doesn't mean they're different life forms entirely.

"How weird do they have to be suggest a second genesis as opposed to just an obscure branch of the family tree?" he said. Davies suggested that the only way to prove an organism wasn't "life as we know it" was if it were built using exotic elements which no other form of life had.

Such organisms have yet to be found. Davies also noted that less than 1 percent of all the world's bacteria had been comprehensively studied — leaving plenty of time to find unusual organisms.

"You cannot tell just by looking that a microbe has some radically different inner chemistry," he said.

Davies' call for alien-hunting scientists to look to their own backyards came as one of the pioneers of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence told the conference the job of finding proof of alien life in outer space may be more difficult than previously thought.

Frank Drake, who conducted the first organized search for alien radio signals in 1960, said that the Earth — which used to pump out a loud mess of radio waves, television signals and other radiation — has been steadily getting quieter as its communications technology improves.

Drake cited the switch from analogue to digital television — which uses a far weaker signal — and the fact that much more communications traffic is now relayed by satellites and fiber optic cables, limiting its leakage into outer space.

"Very soon we will become very undetectable," he said. If similar processes were taking place in other technologically advanced societies, then the search for them "will be much more difficult than we imagined."

But Drake said scientists at SETI were excited by the possibility of using lasers to send super-bright flashes of light into space for a tiny fraction of a second. The flashes could theoretically be seen up by an advanced civilization up to 1,000 light years away, and Tarter said infrared versions of the devices could possibly send beams even further.

But Drake noted that the interstellar equivalent to turning a flashlight on and off only works if a prospective alien civilization wants to get in touch to begin with.

"For this to work ... There has to be altruism in the universe," he said."

You know what, I officially came to the conclusion today that we will really never know if aliens exist or not. We are going to die with no evidence of either they exist or they don't. You can only make a rumor about aliens but you can't say 100% for sure that their is.

ALIENS ARE REAL JUST WATCH MEN IN BLACK THOSE ALIENS ARE VERY GOOD ACTORS AND THEY ALL FIT INTO SOCIETY REALLY WELL AND WE HAVE NO IDEA THEY ARE HERE

tool wrote:ALIENS ARE REAL JUST WATCH MEN IN BLACK THOSE ALIENS ARE VERY GOOD ACTORS AND THEY ALL FIT INTO SOCIETY REALLY WELL AND WE HAVE NO IDEA THEY ARE HERE

OMG I forgot about the Men in Black

lol

i think aliens exist. but our society pictures aliens to be little green monsters with antennas with super advance technology. i dont think we are alone in the universe. theres still plenty of areas we have not searched through. who knows? plus i learned that it may be possible to colonize the moon or even mars in the future.

Hitler wanted to colonize the moon btw

virtuosity wrote:with almond shaped wrap-around eyes.

freaking chinese. they are always getting in the "alien" photos

I know most of you won't believe me when I say this...but Area 51 is MOST DEFINITELY a real place. I have a direct family member that worked there around 40 years ago, and right now because of it, he has 5 different kinds of cancer due to the mass amount of radiation that emanates from the base. This relative is over 80 years old, and he was dead serious when he said that if he leaked any information, the government would come after him. Back when he worked there they would come to his house once a month and ask him a lot of question (who are you talking to? habits? where do you visit? etc.)
Since it's been over 40 years since he's worked there, I asked him if he could tell me ANYTHING about it. All he did say for sure was that they were big into developing lazers. When asked about the aliens he honestly said he'd never heard or seen anything about any aliens while at the base, but that then again you weren't allowed to even talk about your own work to others that worked there.
In the end, anything is possible. Does it really affect our daily lives knowing or not knowing that there are/aren't aliens? No! I personally don't give a shit. I'm going to keep living my life day by day, and if aliens happen to pop up for real, then I'll deal with it then.
I do definitely believe there are other beings out there. The universe is an impossible size to imagine, galaxies and galaxies of chances for there to be life, so don't even bother saying there aren't any.
That is all.

-ToT@L